When I started this series I said that I would write about whatever took my fancy each week. That wasn’t entirely true. By the time I had my first post finished, I had planned out my topics for the following two weeks. By the time week two rolled around, however, the universe (or rather that accretion of atoms collectively known as Peter Lewis Kingston Wentz III) interfered in this best-laid of plans. I briefly considered continuing the schedule as if there had been no interruption (i.e., post week two’s topic this week) but a series of coincidences have encouraged me to do the original week three topic in week three and leave the week two topic until next week (assuming nothing else happens along the way!)
So what on earth is this week’s title on about? Long story….
I’m going to assume you’re all familiar with the concept of ‘slut-shaming’, which could be loosely (no pun intended) defined as a fairly vicious reinforcement of the double standard whereby women are attacked, insulted and mocked for enjoying their sexuality in a way that – if they were men – would probably just earn them the approval of their beer-sodden peers…
So why am I writing about this on a music blog?
1) If ‘a feminist’ simply means someone who supports gender equality, then I am one.
2) As a ‘feminist’ alternative rock fan, I am concerned about the perception (or reality) of slut-shaming in songs by several famous alt-rock (particularly emo) bands.
3) The Facebook account of a local bar in Limerick recently posted derogatory sexual comments on a female student’s wall. The Thomond Student Times – the ‘unofficial’ newspaper of the University of Limerick student body – ran a story about it on their website. Comments – mostly from guys saying ‘it was only a bit of banter’ and criticising the paper – flooded in. My friend Lorna (and I have no qualms about putting her name on this blog, she did all this publicly and is the editor of An Focal – that’s ‘the word’ in Irish – which is the ‘official’ Students’ Union paper, despite it’s long history of clashing with the Union) commented defending the article, and as she was the only identifiable woman in the comments, she was subjected to a torrent of abuse. As a result, she ran an editorial and an article in the next issue of An Focal commending the TST and discussing slut-shaming.
4) I’ve been absent from the ‘Spill for a few days, and only saw Sakura’s post on feminism just before I started typing this, so I reckoned it was too late to post an answer there…
And where did the title come from? Jude Law and a Semester Abroad is a song by Brand New in which Jesse Lacey criticises his ex-girlfriend, who had allegedly cheated on him with his then best friend, John Nolan of Taking Back Sunday. The rest of the title is a bowdlerised quotation from yours truly (the original is “for ****’s sake learn to pick your ****ing battles”) which I will explain the context of a little later on.
First things first. I have a double-major degree in English Lit and History, and am doing a MA in History, so I have a fairly strong grounding in academic feminism. Let me tell y’all something: it’s a mess. From Adrienne Rich and her ilk arguing (in all seriousness) that Emily Dickinson (December 10, 1830 – May 15, 1886) held attitudes developed by the second-wave feminists in the 1960s to Julia Kristeva using Freudian psychoanalysis (scientifically discredited and anti-women in that he argued that a woman could only be raped if she ‘wanted it’) as a tool of feminism, there’s an awful lot of stupidity out there. I took a feminist lit module in which the lecturer took Ursula K. LeGuin and Doris Lessing off the reading list (one assumes because she was too lazy to teach us about feminists who critiqued aspects of feminism) and replaced them with Amy Tan’s The Joy Luck Club (badly-written airport novel), Margaret Atwood’s The Handmaid’s Tale (so-called ‘feminist version’ of 1984, in reality it’s a poor rip-off of early dystopian sci-fi and its heroine is far more passive and useless than Orwell’s Julia, despite all of Orwell’s sexism) and Angela Carter’s The Bloody Chamber (Carter said she wasn’t a feminist, and the stories in this collection all contain pathetically passive heroines, most of whom end up getting raped and/or killed). Of course, I’m not picking on feminism, these are problems inherent in any academic ‘ism’.
There are also issues with ‘real-world’ feminism too. Where to start? The argument that all men are rapists? Too easy. The ones who say that all working women are automatically feminists? Nah. I’m going to bring you a tale from my own past… a debate in which I came up against a leading figure in the Irish debating scene, and a (very loudly) self-proclaimed feminist. I’ve proposed many a difficult motion in my time in debating (I recently had to argue that Pride was – in the West – outmoded, restrictive and irrelevant to the lives of most of the LGBT community, to an audience comprised mostly of members of Out in UL), and this was one of those night. I’d said that the slutwalking movement wasn’t left-wing or feminist enough and wasn’t achieving enough good to make up for the PR damage and real harms associated with mob rule. My (dis)honourable opponent took the stage and spent her entire four-minute speech quite literally screaming at me, with her only two points being that it was good that she – as a woman – was able to stand up and publicly express her opinion (as if what I was saying, which everybody in the room bar her had realised wasn’t actually my opinion, would drag us back to the Middle Ages) and that she – simply by virtue of being a woman – was the only one of the two of us qualified to speak about feminist issues. When I managed to get her to accept a question, I asked her for a fact or two to support her argument. She responded by pointing at me and saying “There! That is the voice of the patriarchy!” as if empiricism was a solely male concern designed to oppress the masses (repress ‘male’ with ‘secular’ and you pretty much have the foundation belief of the Tea Party…)
Now, it’s easy to laugh this off. I did, because that’s how debating works: you tear strips out of each other, and then head to the bar afterwards. Often you’ll be tearing strips out of your friend, sometimes even your significant other, but once you get off the stage it’s all behind you, because it’s just a game. In this instance, my opponent tried to continue the argument in the bar – she ended up being told to leave by the staff. More to the point, she wasn’t some raging loony but a senior figure in the young Irish lefty/feminist scene.
Why all this complaining about my course and one petty non-competitive debate? To try to explain why – despite being involved in No More Page 3 and the Everyday Sexism Project – I’m a little wary of feminism as a thing. I’m a little wary of Marxism too. And socialism, Keynesian economics, libertarianism, nationalism and pretty much any ‘ism’ really. Now to the point…
If I call a particular Ulster Protestant – who I know has committed an act of terrorism – a terrorist, am I being sectarian? Surely not! So why do male songwriters who write songs about cheating exes get accused of sexism or slut-shaming?
Pete Wentz has been repeatedly criticised for this down the years, although the worst lines his detractors can come up with is “douse yourself in cheap perfume/it’s oh so fitting, so fitting/of the way you are: you can’t cover it up/(can’t cover it up)” from I Slept With Someone In Fall Out Boy And All I Got Was This Stupid Song Written About Me and “I’m just a notch in your bedpost, but you’re just a line in a song” from Sugar, We’re Goin’ Down. Accusations are also frequently leveled at Taking Back Sunday (during the period where 99% of their output was Adam Lazarra giving out about Michelle Nolan cheating on him), Brand New (as discussed above) and You Me At Six (again, Josh Franchesci was addressing a specific girl).
So what’s so wrong with calling someone out on infidelity? You’re not abusing a girl for enjoying her sexuality, you’re angry because she cheated on you. Perfectly OK, right? Artists have been doing it since time immemorial! Of course, there’s also a double standard to the criticism of these songs. No-one ever gave out about Michelle Nolan writing songs criticising Lazarra, and the most offensive Fall Out Boy line pales in comparison to this gem from Misery Business by paramore, in which Hayley Williams attacks the girl who stole her first boyfriend:
Second chances they don’t ever matter, people never change:
once a whore, you’re nothing more, I’m sorry that’ll never change,
and about forgiveness we’re both supposed to have exchanged,
I’m sorry honey but I passed it up now look this way.
Well there’s a million other girls who do it just like you,
looking as innocent as possible to get to who
they want and what they like, “it’s easy if you do it right”,
well I refuse, I refuse, I refuse!
Of course, she never got accused of slut-shaming…
Are these songs occasionally petty, small-minded, vindictive and/or bitchy? Yes. But no more so than plenty of other songs, and it doesn’t make them sexist. Also for the record, Jude Law… may reflect on the possibility of the cheating ex dying, but another song on the same album, Seventy Times 7, which is address to John Nolan, is far worse…
So is that what you call a getaway?
Then tell me what you got away with,
’cause I’ve seen more spine in jellyfish
and I’ve seen more guts in 11-year-old kids.
Have another drink and drive yourself home,
I hope there’s ice on all the roads,
and you can think of me when you forget your seatbelt
and again when your head goes through the windshield.
On the other hand, there could be harms associated with these songs. If someone listens to Cute Without The ‘E’ (Cut From The Team) or Secondary or whatever because they have the album on, it’s no big deal. However, if they’re upset and frustrated about relationship difficulties and they go and listen to these songs is that different? Is there a harm there? I don’t know whether there is or not, but it’s an interesting question…
So in short, Sakura, if you support gender equality than you can call yourself a feminist, although there are many ‘feminists’ who would argue with that. But they’re not your problem!
And where did the end of my title come from? After the ‘feminist’ debater got kicked out of the bar, I remarked to one of the girls that I’d learned something, and thanks to that night’s events I had a mantra that I would repeat to myself in politically-charged situations: “for ****’s sake pick your ****ing battles”. Perhaps I should have paid more attention to it when writing this article…
As always with anything I write: debate, discuss, destroy.
Crikey, not sure where to start.
I did a Literature degree which included a module on feminism. It was interesting although, like you, I had my doubts about some of the theories. My ex-husband did the same course and had a lot of trouble with it; he thought it was (mostly) nonsense, in fact he gave the course up, in disgust. I wouldn’t go that far but I could see why he didn’t ‘get’ some of it.
As you say, people have been naming and shaming for years; if I had heard that song without your explanation it would have gone straight over my head as I don’t know anything about the protagonists. Cheating isn’t nice but public humiliation isn’t nice either, however it’s done, whether by Facebook or other means.
I do think there are double standards for men and women and that does need to be addressed, but can only be done through rational argument and education. To my mind girls are more conditioned to be ‘girly’ these days (speaking as an old fart), deluged with pink crap etc. and boys seem to be losing out at school (my son’s female teacher once said “Well, he’s a boy, what do you expect?” when he was struggling with something).
Dunno what the answer is. Not sure what the question was either, but I’ve had a go at it.
Blimey, I’m not sure where to start either.
Very erudite and articulate piece of writing, Punky – I can see how useful you’d be in a debate! I feel semi-dutybound to try and defend Freud (as a pioneer in his field who, perhaps inevitably, made a fair few mistakes along the way but who raised lots of important questions about the human psyche, even if his answers were sometimes rather suspect – and who constantly revised his theories anyway), but I’m not really enough of an expert to do so. And that comment was (literally) parenthetical to the points you were making anyway. All of which I think I agree with!
Yes, I’d stick up for the possibility of feminism informed by psychoanalytic thinking. He fell into the trap of stupidity that he was smart enough to define as part of the human condition – that we defend ourselves from unbearable truths. The stories women told him were too unbearably dreadful to be actually true, so he decided they must have been fantasy.
As someone with an MSc in Sociology, and having studied feminism and masculinity I’m not sure what to say. There is undoubtedly a double standard about female sexuality, I come from the point of view that feminism should allow women to do what they like, sexually, socially and economically, we’re a long way from that ideal.
I believe people should write songs about what they care about, there was a time when I’d have given almost anything to be immortalised in song, even in a bad way, the closest I got was an album credit. Does that contradict anything?
To sum up, women should be able to sleep with whoever they want without censure and anyone should be allowed to write revenge songs if they are moved to, so um, yes?
“Slut-shaming” is a new phrase for me, but a familiar misogyny. If The Social Network is to be believed, Facebook was born to publicly embarrass a woman.
“Comments – mostly from guys saying ‘it was only a bit of banter’ and criticising the paper – flooded in.”
The word ‘banter’ has been irreparably soiled by the up standing champions of female empowerment: Richard Keys and Andy Gray.
If it is ever used, (I can not use the term ‘banter’ in any sentence now without shame and the feeling of their sickening slime descending upon my soul). If it is ever used, in defence of ANY statement, then it is a sure fire certainty that the person using the word is a:
huge puffy bag of testosterone soaked sexist spouting shite in a suit – (Burton or shell) – while being an ever degrading bollock of a excuse for human skin with a shrivelling brain to match.
If you just put the word ‘banter’ in the centre – and we can all step to the side we wish to associate with:
sexist non sexist.
All the world needs is ‘saneshane simple solutions © 2013′ – My ideas factory opens whenever a bottle does.
Hooray !
Dond!
“My ideas factory opens whenever a bottle does.”
Mine too…
I think there are a lot of political activists out there who spend a lot of time picking petty fights with very minor targets and drawing ever more petty dividing lines – it’s an easy way of making a niche for yourself. I remember student politics being full of vicious, bitter battles for control of the student’s union. It wasn’t as if it was the storming of the winter palace. I heard once that the Revolutionary Communist candidate at a hustings punched the Socialist Worker’s candidate in the face at the end of a student debate!
Your encounter reminded me of a couple of things that have happened to me. One was a gig where I was trying to sell copies of my mate’s fanzine. I was talking to a German anarcho-punk type who was interested in buying one until during the course of my sales waffle I mentioned that it included an interview with The Casualties. He wasn’t happy. The Casualties were on (US label) Punkcore Records he solemnly informed me, and Punkcore supports nazi bands. News to me , I had a fair few records on the label in my collection. I obviously wasn’t going to sell one, but I challenged him to tell me what nazi bands they supported. “They support nazi bands” he replied. I asked him to name one, but he just kept parrotting the same line with no evidence. I didn’t mention the reason that I was selling copies of my (nazi-hating) mate’s zine
was that I’d contributed the Casualties interview. I would probably have got hung from the nearest petrol station. To this day I’ve never seen a scrap of evidence that Punkcore supported a single nazi band.
The second story that still amuses me is that I was at a punk all dayer once with a younger mate. Generally he was pretty PC but on this one occasion while talking to a mate he used the word “bird”. He was instantly pounced on by a punk woman who’d overheard him who started having a go at him for his sexist language. He immediately apologised for any offence. I’m pretty sure she would have got a far less reasonable response from any other man at that gig. She didn’t leave it there though and continued to harangue him. Hours later after the gig finished we bumped into her at the station where she was waiting for the same train as us. He caught her eye and mumbled a half apologetic hello (so reasonable!) at which point she started tearing strips off him again for his misogyny, demanding to know if he would also use racist language etc, while he kept on apologising. She eventually let it lie, and got chatting to a couple of other lads, one of whom we clearly overheard refer to her as a “bird” with no comeback whatsoever! Add to that the fact that among the bands she had painted on her punk leather jacket were Test Tube Babies (liberal use of the word “bird” in some of their best known songs) and GBH (had a well known song called Slut, although this particuar song is full of lustful admiration of the “slut” – not sure if that makes it any better…).
As for songs about unfaithful partners I’ve got no problem there as long as the same standards apply both ways and preferaby the songs aren’t advocating actual violence! As I say certain people will look to find things to condemn for their own purposes, it all sounds a lot like the 80s.
Ever since the Buzzcocks sang “Oh Shit!” I’ve learned to love gleeful revenge songs. But I’m still uncomfortable with such directness.
Like saneshane I hate never use the word ‘banter*. It’s always banter until you give it back and then the one saying ‘it’s only banter’ usually gets upset and takes the situation to another level of aggression. Sometimes that aggression continues as bullying in the online sphere. Callous.
I had a go at a former friend for calling a woman ‘a bitch”. I demanded to know why she was. Turned out that she’d rebuffed his advances. Later on, he joked with her. When she (ever the diplomat) left he turned round and announced ‘he’d just have to go back to his bitch indoors’. Some things are honest revenge, some are sexism dressed up as revenge. Which is which?
I’ve always loved Kim Gordon’s lyrics for the way they deal with sex and gender issues. I could never tell you exactly what they’re about, but a song like “Flower” with its “Support the power of women / Use the power of man / Support the flower of women / Use the word:/ Fuck / The word is love” lines and it’s exploitation cover helped me realise that I should consider how I use language and images when discussing sex and gender issues. I’m still learning.
One thing I am sure of is that a song like Finland’s Eurovision entry with lyrics like:
Spying on you undercover, drinking coffee with your mother
Am I getting closer?
Baby, I feel like a sinner, skipping dinner to be thinner
Where is my proposal?
I’ll play your game, I’ll change my last name
I’ll walk the walk of shame
I do it for you, for you, for you
Yeah, I do it for you, marry me, baby.
just reinforce a very patriarchal view of the world. However, they might sound different if redone by Laibach. As it is it’s a perfect addition to a bad playlist of songs about bells. Anyway, give me the revenge song at least I know that the cheating heart is a beating heart. Well not always, sometimes it’s cold and calculating but I’ll end here.
Goodnight.
its. I can live with the other errors.
Gosh ! ! ! I do not know where to begin either ! ! !
I think I will start by saying I think that I really hate the word slut.
Secondly I think the concept of shaming someone is a very alien one to me and probably most Japanese people. It is part of our culture to try and allow the other person in a disagreement a way to preserve their dignity and to do the opposite is quite alien.
But actually I think the idea of writing something bad about an ex lover in a song where she can be identified is really very immature and one wonders what the real motive was? If it is to shock, and get some publicity then it really is the worst kind of behaviour. If it is revenge , then what a little man he must be. By my most powerful reaction is to tell the child to grow up.
So, I do not actually think this is about feminism this is about bullying.
One person has power has an audience and the other does not. The bully is just using his power to hurt a weaker person. It is cheap, and childish and I am sure when he grows up he will be embarrassed to remember this.
The second is really about the nature of relationships. Not all relationships have exclusive sexual partners. It is only cheating to sleep with someone else if you have both agreed this is the type of relationship you have. It is a mistake to assume that just because you sleep with someone that from that moment on you are the only person who will. Maybe he assumed something the girl did not agree to?
However, if they did have a romantic relationship that was based on sexual fidelity, then I would say that she was wrong to sleep with someone else, but even if she was wrong, she did not deserve to be attacked in this way.
To use your power like he did is the same as using violence, it is bullying, weak and cheap. It does not mean your are sexist, it just means you are a creep.
Hear, hear!
Excellent post. Seconded!
I learn so much reading this blog and y’all always make me think…if there are no objections, I may well crib bits of the discussion around Sakura’s feminism post and the discussion here for my course later in the semester when we discuss feminism, with full acknowledgements to you all….Here I will just add that when our younger daughter was in her heavy duty emo phase and listening to all these bands (and more) I was struck by watching her trying to negotiate her deep feminism (which she and her sister both still proudly wear on their sleeves, shirts, pants, dresses…) with these boy bands and their songs…Hayley Williams wasn’t much help nor Amy Lee or the few others.
Anyway, my thanks to you all, as always, for making me think…
Eeesh!
What’s that you say?
“You’re on the wrong thread, DsD!”
Actually, I don’t believe I am.
I come from that standpoint alluded to already: pick your fights carefully, particularly with anyone who wants to engage you on the definitive boundaries of any ‘-ism’. Feminism, as a position that needs to be defended, simply shouldn’t exist. In EXACTLY the same way (for me) that racism shouldn’t exist:
WE’RE ALL THE F***IN’ SAME: HUMAN!
As far as I’m concerned, there are only two aims in life -
1. Try to do everything as best you can; and
2. Everyone you meet starts* by deserving to be treated as well as you would hope to be treated in return.
[ * Note the word 'starts': I'll come back to that later.]
Now over the years I’ve been dismissed / harangued / abused / ignored / overlooked / etc. ad nauseam for those views, primarily under the accusations that my position is naively and unrealistically idealist; allows the greedy alpha-male status quo to continue its abuse of the rest of us; and that I’m a sheep, i.e. if I’m not prepared to fight for the solution, then I’m part of the problem.
I admit there’s mileage in those arguments, but I decided long ago that I don’t possess enough of the requisite:
(i) macro-enabled brain
(ii) sociopathic tendancies
(iii) ruthless ambition
to trample over my peers and climb the corporate/economic/political ladder far enough to change anything at any widespread level.
Specifically on “feminism”, I have a serious problem with the whole concept –
as far as I’m concerned, the rule has always been that if the best “man” for a job is a woman, then just get on with it. An anecdote from my past:
I used to run a warehouse evening shift, very successfully as it happens. During our expansion from 30 to nearly 200 staff, I was required to employ new operators for some high-bay carton-picking cranes, working on their own up to 60ft above ground in a computer-controlled, high-tech conveyor-belt system. One unsuccessful candidate [let's call him M] complained to the union that I must be picking favourites [citing a successful applicant we'll call W] rather than the best candidates. I was actually asked to defend my choice of W, though my boss accepted my argument that W was keen, intelligent, never absent, and had a very low error rate in their existing job. M, on the other hand, was as thick as pig-shit, on his umpteenth last chance departmental transfer, had a horrendous absenteeism rate, repeatedly turned up for work smelling of drink, and had had a previous warning for putting his own health & safety at risk. And no, I would not be bloody-well swayed by the fact that he was the senior union rep’s brother, and life would be an awful lot smoother if he was inside pissing out rather than outside pissing in! At this point, I really thought that’s all it was. But under the procedure in place at the time, M had a further right of appeal, which surprise, surprise, he chose to use. His grounds? Crane operator was a man’s job, and W possessed an undoubted pair of sizeable breasts, which M was sure she was using as DsD-ear-warmers on a regular basis. Now at this point I got a bit narked (and this is where I have a problem with all of those lyrics used in AIP‘s original post, and where I also pull the rug out from under my own “treat well” argument), but fortunately was spared the ordeal of a hearing, as M was dissuaded by various parties from pursuing that ridiculous line officially. UNfortunately, that didn’t stop him from slinging that mud outside of formal procedure, and if you shovel enough shit, sooner or later, the stench starts to stick. So much so that the on-site instructor from the crane supplier chose to have a quiet word in my ear, and this is what REALLY depressed me. He’d heard the rumours (“rubbish, of course, Rich . . . but . . .”) yeah, but … did I realise that I had nominated the first female operator for this equipment in the north of England, AND ONLY THE SECOND ONE IN THE WHOLE OF THE UK?
WTF? I asked the instructor how many places these [fairly specialised] machines were used in the UK, thinking if it was only 3 or 4, I could possibly hold onto what was left of my sanity. His answer? THIRTY-NINE SITES. We weren’t the biggest user by any means, and we had sixteen machines, working two shifts. TWO women operators out of how many?????
I’m deadly serious, folks, this was one of those “life’s crossroads” points we’ve discussed before. At that moment, I now know I started to draw my own life’s borders inwards, rather than push them out.
Those who shit in my grounds (Shane used Keys & Gray as an example; I tend to cite that scumbag Kelvin MacKenzie) have their rights to be treated well removed. But as much as I will rejoice on the day that Thatcher dies, I wouldn’t dream of (ab)using my professional position by, say, superimposing her face onto the pictures of the “bad” characters in my work Powerpoint presentations. I think the slut-shaming antics are wrong, end of, but IMO it has nothing to do with feminism. I don’t admire AIP‘s debating opponent, and wyngate‘s mate’s haranguer for their feminist standpoints, I pity them for the negativity they’re allowing to devour them from the inside.
Put your energy into battles you can win, people. Be happy, be cool, be good to those who deserve it, regardless of their gender, race, size, or even their ridiculous affection for Manchester United!!!
Aw shoot. Format fail! Ignore the extended italics, folks. Sorry.
“Specifically on “feminism”, I have a serious problem with the whole concept –
as far as I’m concerned, the rule has always been that if the best “man” for a job is a woman, then just get on with it.”
And i’ll also argue that if the best person for the job is a man, get on with it. Hence my disgust at all-woman shortlists. Now given that we don’t have the same party system in politics that you do, still, as i voter i’m being shortchanged if you limit my choices to just women, and not including both sexes. Now if the best candidates for the job are indeed all women, or all men even, fine. But to artificially limit it disrespects me, and all constituents, as voters.
I’m a Stones fan. Can a Stones fan be a feminist? Probably not. But that’s ok, i’m not one either, i’m an equallist. Art is not always pc.
(*i’ve argued this ad nauseum, i’m probably done with this battle. But glad to see some common sense from you, son.)
I have been contemplating for awhile doing a post on the use of the word bitch in popular culture. (My post was also going to cover male rappers’ overuse of the word nigger, so I still haven’t stolen from myself.)
Pick a rap or hip hop song at random and you’re likely to hear bitch half a dozen times. Watch a TV show, cop ones in particular, and the ne’er-do-wells use it freely.
I’ve long been of the view that repeated exposure to violence, sexism, etc – in TV, movies, song, games – dulls our indignation and hence increases our tolerance. I know there have been ‘studies’ disproving this, but pure logic plus anecdotal evidence from raising children leads me to question their integrity.
So bitch bad, woman good. Lady better.
(The chorus is from a Lupe Fiasco song that is a Gil-Scott Heron-like rant about the sociology of it all, which is why last year’s Food & Liquor II was an important album. Haze’s verses are more storytelling, and equally important and necessary)
TIPHaze is deffo worth a listen. She’s a feminist, and seems comparable to Natalie Merchant in perspective. She is very much Eminem-like and delivery, and shares starting out as a rap outsider – Eminem because he is white and Haze because she is female. She’s young, uneven and not selective enough, but easy on the ears of rap-haters.
I have to agree with you that i generally hate the word Bitch (but think it’s funny when it’s used like Punky uses it, like in the Britney Spears thing “It’s Britney, Bitches” – that’s used in a genderless sense.) But i was surprised to see in a CiF piece that Babe was the word that women seemed to hate being called most. I have no problem with that at all.
I HATE babe. Do I suck my thumb? Am I 16? Nope.
That seems to be the general concensus. But somehow my hackles don’t seem to rise when i (admittedly rarely) get called that. Don’t mind Baby at all, i rather like it actually and use it myself.
… every use of a word IS in context and how each individual perceived it, isn’t it.
I detest using Lady (as i said before) – it conjures up ladies day at ascot and the such like – in England it has class connotations, but it’s an entirely personal response.
I have far more issues with the unfairness of class divide than I do with male/female divide – which is why it niggles at me.
My female friends are mostly doing work that is NOT based on ideas of success or competition – they work to help others or the planet. And any that do do those sort of competitive jobs – well they don’t blame men – they blame the fact that all of us were too busy watching bands and partying all our lives to bother getting on a career ladder.
That doesn’t mean I don’t think about it being unfair in the world as a whole .. just close to home it’s not top priority.
That babe article is funny – the reactions even more so – and I struggle to understand why people don’t just say – please use another word – I don’t like that – it’s quite simple.
I have the ‘fun’ of being called ‘Doll’ lots – It was a very strange idea when I first moved here and heard it.
Out of context it can be very odd – I’m a middle aged man who often gets called ‘doll’ by young females in the supermarket and older women I work for.
I may be limp, lifeless, my stuffing may well be trying to escape the cracks of my skin and my eyes are glazed – but I’m not a doll in any way. Do I mind – it’s a weird turn of phrase – but it’s not belittling me – so no.
This would make a good spill challenge;
Songs by singers you really like – that use a turn of phrase or word that you hate – thus putting you off said song.
(snappy title, huh? – I have a way with words)
… but that’s for another thread – not here.
OOH! Donds for that topic!
(Longwinded) Lupe says:
Yeah, now imagine a group of little girls nine through twelve
On the internet watchin’ videos listenin’ to songs by themselves
It doesn’t really matter if they have parental clearance
They understand the internet better than their parents
Now being the internet, the content’s probably uncensored
They’re young, so they’re malleable and probably unmentored
A complicated combination, maybe with no relevance
Until that intelligence meets their favourite singer’s preference
“Bad bitches, bad bitches, bad bitches
That’s all I want and all I like in life is bad bitches, bad bitches”
Now let’s say that they less concerned with him
And more with the video girl acquiescent to his whims
Ah, the plot thickens
High heels, long hair, fat booty, slim
Reality check, I’m not trippin’
They don’t see a paid actress, just what makes a bad bitch
Angel says:
All mama had to do is look and listen
She let ‘em hear it, let ‘em see it
Let ‘em grow up, let ‘em be it
When all she had to do was just show up and help ‘em beat it
Oh and I have no real problem with revenge-type songs, whatever the gender of either party. However… when they are too vindictive or too revealing or too clearly about one particular person, apart from the prurient thrill that one admittedly gets as a listener, I think they tarnish the public perception of the singer as much as the object of his/her vitriol. It’s that whole ‘airing your dirty linen in public’ thing: it’s unseemly and unbecoming and all those other old-fashioned ‘un-’ words.
Not quite the same thing perhaps, but it makes me think of the whole Chris Huhne/Vicky Pryce business. Now I’m sure he’s a grade-A arsehole (and doubtless the papers are as much to blame for taking the story and running with it/spinning it out), but when I read yet another headline along the lines of ‘He made me abort our baby’, I cease thinking about what an arsehole he is and start wondering about how damaged she is, to want to let the whole world (including his and her teenage children) know things like that. It just seems to reflect so badly on her – and gives people (including me, it would seem!) so much ammunition to shake their heads wearily and utter such sexist pronouncements as “Hell hath no fury…”
Yeah, i read those pieces, she really did come off badly.
I think they probably deserve each other – there’s equality for you.
The mistress (now there’s a word) seems like a piece of work too – make it a trio.
I have to say that this saddens me in a personal sense – and i fully realize i’m alone here, for you all it’s probably schaudenfreude – because i have a big soft spot for your LibDems, and i’d be one if we had a yankee equivalent of the party. But it seems like a sort of disproportionate number of LibDems have taken a fall on ethics scandals since they’re been in office.
That may have something to do with the fact that the Lib Dems have never held power. The Liberals did (before the merger with the social democrats) but (and my 20th century history is pretty hazy) I’m pretty sure they haven’t since the rise of Labour at the end of WW2… So they had lovely policies, but never actually had any real responsibility.
I think that over here we’d have a better shot at LibDem / Indy / Libertarian type candidates working out, as we vote for individuals and not parties. Hence, no coalitions, and it goes issue by issue.
Just for an example, my state (solidly and unequivocally Democratic, to its immense detriment) has an Indy governor (formerly Republican senator, and the only one who voted against the Iraq War). He’s as effective as can possibly be given the mess he has to work with. He plugs same-sex marriage, he’s pro-choice, pro-separation of church and state (not small beer in this heavily Catholic state), went to court with the feds to prevent a capital punishment execution (he lost), plays hardball with the unions on pension reform, and signed off on a voter ID law. Not bad.
My apologies for not replying for so long: I was at debating last night, followed by an extended session in the ideas factory (bar) to celebrate Lorna’s cousin’s return from a year studying in Poland. As a matter of fact, I had to rescue one of the girls from being hit on by a guy who spent literally ten minutes staring at her chest… but anyway, onto the point. Here’s a few general remarks in response to what people have been saying.
A couple of people have brought up issues with ‘revenge songs’. Personally, I’m torn. Sure, they can be unpleasant and childish (not that that stopped ‘Seventy x 7′ being one of the more popular choices to be saved the last time I did the ‘Spill game…), but I think in the cases of the songs I’m talking about people are overestimating the power of songwriter:
1) Fall Out Boy – we know it’s about an ex-girlfriend, but nobody knows who, and Wentz has also attacked male infidelity on ‘Headfirst Slide Into Cooperstown On A Bad Bet’.
2) Brand New – the girl would not have been identifiable outside of her social circle and Jesse Lacey spends far more of the album attacking John Nolan, who of course was writing songs about Jesse…
3) Taking Back Sunday – not revenge songs so much as a war of words between Adam (via TBS) and the Nolan siblings (via Straylight Run). Michelle had ample opportunity to have her say, and arguably was far more vicious about Adam than he ever was about her. This doesn’t make it right, but it does undermine the ‘nasty petty boy bitching about his ex-girlfriend’ argument.
Bethnoir said:
“women should be able to sleep with whoever they want without censure and anyone should be allowed to write revenge songs if they are moved to”.
…and Sakura said:
“But actually I think the idea of writing something bad about an ex lover in a song where she can be identified is really very immature and one wonders what the real motive was? If it is to shock, and get some publicity then it really is the worst kind of behaviour. If it is revenge , then what a little man he must be. By my most powerful reaction is to tell the child to grow up.
So, I do not actually think this is about feminism this is about bullying.
One person has power has an audience and the other does not. The bully is just using his power to hurt a weaker person. It is cheap, and childish and I am sure when he grows up he will be embarrassed to remember this.
The second is really about the nature of relationships. Not all relationships have exclusive sexual partners. It is only cheating to sleep with someone else if you have both agreed this is the type of relationship you have. It is a mistake to assume that just because you sleep with someone that from that moment on you are the only person who will. Maybe he assumed something the girl did not agree to?”
First off – and I cannot stress this enough – my post is not about revenge songs in general. It is not about people being petty about their ex-lovers. It is about the revenge songs I have in my CD collection, which through an accident of circumstance (which basically defined emo by sheer coincidence…) are all about infidelity. Yes, it’s immature. Is it bullying? I don’t know, and I was hoping to hear opinions on that. What I will say is that in the case of the songs by Brand New and Taking Back Sunday, this was not one person bullying another but a feud started by the breakdown in five relationships/friendships (John Nolan/JesseLacey, Adam Lazarra/John Nolan, Michelle Nolan/Adam Lazarra, Adam Lazarra/Shaun Cooper (TBS bassist) and Jesse Lacey/his girlfriend) that was played out publicly across several albums and ended up involving seven bands along the way (TBS, Brand New, Straylight Run, Destry, The Color Fred, The Dropkick Murphys and blink-182). It has since been resolved and they’re all friends again, but the only ‘innocent’ here was – arguably – Jesse’s girlfriend, who didn’t have a band and couldn’t fight back. On the other had, as she started the whole thing by cheating on Jesse with his best friend (who was even more wrong to go along with it, if you ask me), I would feel that she’s only relatively innocent. Maybe I’m wrong…
Sakura also mentioned the nature of relationships, which is an interesting point. In Ireland we don’t really do the thing people do in the States (dunno about anywhere else) where you can casually date several people at the same time and then see which relationship is the one you want to go with. Over here we have exclusive, open (pretty rare in my age group), casual ‘friends-with-benefits’ and one-night stands. In the case if the Nolan mess, supposedly the whole situation blew up when Adam confronted Michelle about cheating and she explained that she had felt they were in an open relationship. He said he was OK with that and apologised for the miscommunication, but as soon as he slept with another girl she ran crying to her big brother John, who had a massive row with Adam and left Taking Back Sunday. If that’s true (and both Adam and Michelle have indicated that it is), there’s a massive double standard for you!
Re-reading my post, I’m not sure I made my philosophical standpoint clear, so here it is:
Anyone, man or woman, is perfectly entitled to have consensual sexual relations with whoever they wish, with two caveats:
1) If one person is underage and the other isn’t
2) If one or both people are in exclusive relationships
I personally have absolutely no ethical qualms with calling someone out on infidelity. I may as well admit that there was another inspiration for writing the original post, which is that a very close female friend of mine – who has been cheated on in the past – has been considering sleeping with a guy who she knows is in an exclusive relationship, arguing that the world’s an awful place and she’s been hurt, so why shouldn’t she hurt someone else. So in a sense I’m feeling very old-fashioned about exclusivity in relationships at the moment, and that does impact on my views.
There are also to side-notes on the idea of revenge songs that I want to mention:
1) Songwriting (or other art) as a theraputic or cathartic exercise. Is it better to write the song than to bottle it all up?
2) When Bob Dylan does it people call it great art. Not even gonna bother listing the songs I mean, y’all know what I’m talking about!
What else do I have to say? Massive props to Shane for saying what we were all thinking about banter, and saying it far more eloquently that I ever could.
In my understanding of my peers’ opinions on pet names, the term mostly likely to earn you a free castration in UL is ‘babydoll’, which is not only patronising but makes me think of Emily Browning wielding a katana…
On an off-topic note, I would like to take this opportunity to apologise to Aba for not yet boxing that Rolo Tomassi album: I’ve been operating from a netbook for the last few days and haven’t had access to my external CD drive…
Keep discussing please! Far more enlightening than any feminist debate I’ve had to misfortune to attend!
see my point about ‘Doll’ – (up a bit) – there’s weird pockets of England where Doll is used (often and interestingly by females to males) in normal life – like Pet is used in the north east – it would be odd in normal life but in certain accents it becomes weirdly charming.
Again – it’s context.
theraputic:
Everybody knows that you love me baby
Everybody knows that you really do
Everybody knows that you’ve been faithful
Ah give or take a night or two
Everybody knows you’ve been discreet
But there were so many people you just had to meet
Without your clothes
And everybody knows
(…..)
And everybody knows that the Plague is coming
Everybody knows that it’s moving fast
Everybody knows that the naked man and woman
Are just a shining artifact of the past
Everybody knows the scene is dead
But there’s gonna be a meter on your bed
That will disclose
What everybody knows
Lenny Cohen – Everybody Knows
“there’s weird pockets of England where Doll is used (often and interestingly by females to males) in normal life – like Pet is used in the north east”
In my little corner of bog, girls use ‘hun’ and ‘babes’ in that way. Also, ‘lads’ is genderless, referring simply to a group of friends of both (or either) gender, e.g. “come on lads, let’s go get drinks” is perfectly acceptable usage, even if everyone you’re addressing is a girl.
I think in some parts of the UK it’s “duck” and “love” too. Here it can be love, sweetheart, honey, etc, too.
where I’m from, ‘my lover’ and ‘love’ are very common and sometimes, ‘my flower’. I don’t think being called a general term like that is offensive. Some people are terribly sensitive.
Hun is used between a lot of our male and female friends especially when we used to text a lot – we try to avoid using it when addressing our German friends – it’s confusing for them.
‘Guys’ is the adopted term for a group of either sex – used by my eldest child (it’s been championed on cbbc, especially newsround – where, oh where, has the professionalism gone?) I do scream and tell him he is not an American – please use English – “you lot/ them lot/ scumsuckers /shitbags” will do just fine – anything but “guys”
I think i had the conversation with Chinny on the mothership a few months ago about “dude”. (yeah, that’s definitely yankee.) I get called dude a lot, especially by girls (sometimes from guys it’s dudette), but you wouldn’t say about a girl – “that dude over there”.
Punky -
“Over here we have exclusive, open (pretty rare in my age group), casual ‘friends-with-benefits’ and one-night stands.”
This is the case here too. There seems to be a lot of misconceptions overseas about American dating habits. We’re the same as you all, really! The folks who go on dates, and date multiple people, and out to dinner and all of that guff aren’t 99% of us.
As to infidelity – well, i know an awful lot of people who are very happily married for a long time – but the relationships started when one or both were married to other people. So i reserve judgement. However, in a personal sense, that is a line i will never cross. (I did it once, when very, very young, and said never again And have stuck to that ever since.) If a guy has a wife, or even a serious girlfriend or boyfriend, well, that’s off limits to me.
I just feel that – leaving my personal ethical standpoint aside – if your relationship begins in infidelity sure that raises some difficult questions? I know a guy who is in a happy relationship with his girlfriend. They began sleeping together when she was in a supposedly exclusive relationship with someone else. How does he know that she won’t do the same thing to him?
I once ended a relationship because I realised that I had feelings for someone else. The girl I broke up with is still a good friend of mine, which kind of supports my idea that the truth, no matter how unpleasant, is preferable to deceit and infidelity.
“if your relationship begins in infidelity sure that raises some difficult questions?”
Sure, sometimes. But it’s also a not infrequent situation where in the original marriage (or committed relationship, whatever), it wasn’t with the right person in the first place. Or people outgrew each other over time. Keep in mind that i’m old now and so are a lot of my friends, so it’s not like everyone is out shagging like rabbits. (Pickings tend to be pretty slim at my age as well.) People rather like being settled when they find a situation that works.
In a personal sense also, i’m monogamous by nature. I can’t see myself being unfaithful either if i’m in a committed relationship. Granted, it’s like breaking rocks or pulling teeth to get me into one, i rather like being alone. But i would hope that if i was in one, but found that i wanted to be involved with someone else that badly, i’d have the stones to end the original relationship first. I just don’t have the stomach to sneak around and decieve someone, and i’m a bad liar.
“Sure, sometimes. But it’s also a not infrequent situation where in the original marriage (or committed relationship, whatever), it wasn’t with the right person in the first place. Or people outgrew each other over time.”
And in those situations I’ve no sympathy with the people who don’t just end the relationship and move on, rather than deceiving their partner and cheating. But that’s just me…
I agree with you in theory, but it’s not always that simple either. I look at it like none of us have any idea what goes on in other people’s relationships, so i’m best off leaving it to them to sort out, it’s really none of my business, and not mine to judge either.
While I agree with you in principle, in practice I’m my social circle’s resident problem-solver, so I don’t like people making more problems. Plus, in the case of the girl who wants to sleep with a cheating guy, through my friendships with all three corners of the lust triangle and my very complex relationship with one corner of it, I’m too emotionally-invested to not judge lol
Honestly son, age makes a big difference here. At your age folks aren’t looking to shack up and settle down yet, and there aren’t kids involved. So it’s entirely possible that your friend that hooked up with the girl who cheated will be cheated on in turn. That’s actually what you’re all supposed to be doing at your age – testing out a lot of relationships and situations, etc.
It’s different when people get older, and there is money involved, kids, assets, real jobs, longevity, etc.
sorry, got that bass ackwards – the girl with the cheating guy, not vice versa.
Well the girl who wants to hook up with the cheating guy has already been cheated on, and that’s part of her justification for doing it (work that one out!)
Anyway, I’ma stop typing now: she’s just sat down at the computer next to mine, although fortunately she can’t see what I’m doing!
Gosh ! ! !
People are really going to need to chill after all the heavy relationship and sexual politics – And He Said – She Said is has just been posted so that was great timing ! ! !
Well I had to look in google to find what friends with benefits is and it seems like just like dating with a commitment scared guy ( that’s all of the them I suppose )
So, about Bob Dylan . . . Well I guess everyone knows I am not the greatest fan of BD, but anyway it depends what you call art really . . . .and that is a really big question. ! ! !
I suppose in most concise definition I have heard is that it is either a window that you use to see out into the world or a mirror you use to look into your self. So at the heart of it is about understanding and communicating something about the world or human truths.
Now, YUI or maybe Bob Dylan can, in a four minute song create the space to communicate something important about the human condition, but then they are maybe two of the greatest songwriters alive. I am sorry if this sounds rude and disrespectful, it is certainly not meant to be. But maybe because I do not understand English well enough, but in the tracks I have heard I thought these groups do not have that song writing ability. But then very few groups or singers do have that really unique ability, so I am not saying I do not like them, or that I think they are not so good or anything, I am just saying that they are not in the top five or six most talented songwriters in the world these days. Pop and rock is entertainment, only occasionally does it approach art and even more rarely does it become art in my opinion. But there I nothing wrong with entertainment ! ! !
Now regarding Jessie, I really do not think it is important if she was to blame or not. No one deserves to be publicly humiliated and bullied in this way, it is revealing things about her private life and that is unacceptable in my view, she is not a public figure like the band (s) and she should be protected from having her private life exposed in public.
It is really very easy to have misunderstandings in relationships and that it is why I think it is important to be communicate clearly what you expect in a relationship and even if you are actually having one. I will not go into too much detail, (my dad sometimes read the blog) but I had a guy suddenly get jealous because the thought he was my boyfriend and I did not think he was my boyfriend at all ! ! ! When I corrected him he said that he thought that because of how I had acted to him. He was an American guy and living here so I suppose there were cultural things also, but I never said he was NOT my boyfriend I just did not say he was and somehow the misunderstanding happened and I hurt him without meaning to. So now I am always clear about saying how I feel (when I actually know how I feel . . .)
I think fidelity is actually a simple question. The first thing is that it starts and ends with honesty and strength. Any girl can pretty much get any guy into bed even if he is married, if he is weak. So lesson one – do not have relationships with weak partners.
I also think that honesty is the most important thing. If you cheat on your partner and do not say anything, you give your partner the wrong impression of what is happening in their life. We all have the right to live in the real world and know what are the true feelings of those closest to us. The discovery that what you thought was real was actually a fantasy built on to lies from someone else is devastating. This has happened to me in the past and I would certainly never do anything to make this happen to someone else.
Fidelity after all means truth in Latin I think.
“friends with benefits is and it seems like just like dating with a commitment scared guy”
Not quite. Another term is buddy fuck (sorry about that). It’s sleeping with someone you’re just friends with. In the best possible world, neither of you want anything more than that.
I love your ideals for life, they sound great, in theory. Unfortunately as soon as emotions and sex are involved, rationality and truth don’t always seem to apply.
I’m going to go and read your And He Said- She Said post, it is getting too heavy here.
amylee – surely you meant ‘fuck buddy’?
Sakura – “dating a commitment-scared guy (that’s all of them I suppose)”
you wound me deeply!
As for your point about songwriting, early Brand New were NOT good songwriters, but they were only about 19. Taking Back Sunday are very much love-them-or-hate-them. However, I must warn you that you criticise Pete Wentz’s songwriting ability at your peril around me! Love or hate Fall Out Boy, I will go to my grave insisting that the man is a genius
“I also think that honesty is the most important thing. If you cheat on your partner and do not say anything, you give your partner the wrong impression of what is happening in their life. We all have the right to live in the real world and know what are the true feelings of those closest to us. The discovery that what you thought was real was actually a fantasy built on to lies from someone else is devastating. This has happened to me in the past and I would certainly never do anything to make this happen to someone else.
Fidelity after all means truth in Latin I think.”
Hear, hear! However, I think if you cheat on your partner (assuming you’ve both agreed you’re in an exclusive relationship), then you have already betrayed them. It’s better to tell them the truth, but it would have been much better not to bloody well cheat in the first place!
As for your story about the American guy, a similar thing happened to a girl I know, and Irish culture is much closer to the US than Japanese culture… maybe Americans are just crazy! (You know I’m joking, amylee, Sweethomealabama and the rest!)
Off to look at He Said/She Said now!
Son -
your version is the noun, mine is the verb. (sorta)
Hi AIP ! ! !
“Brand New were NOT good songwriters, but they were only about 19.”
But YUI was only 17 when she wrote Feel My Soul and Tokyo . . .
OK we will not fight over it . . If you are sure he is a genius I will not disagree with you . . .
But check out YUI when she was 17 . . . . .
I really enjoyed the discussion ! ! !