The big question is of course -are you a feminist? And can you be a “girl” and a feminist?
This is question that I have been fighting with for sometime.
Personally, I like being pretty, I like flirting with guys. I like Kawaii things, soft toys, nice clothes, and strong men . . . . so can I be a feminist ? ? ?
I think that somehow, there should be no conflict. But, western feminism from my view, has created a battlefield that some how makes us choose a side: men – women – and after that . . . right –wrong.
The traditional feminine virtues of looking after your man and family are seen by western feminists as a sign if subjection.
But I dream of having a man and a family, and children, and if I can spend the time with my children, if the gods bless me with them, then I know, that a guy somewhere, is going to be working his ass off for us.
Why is this separation of our roles wrong ? ? ?
OK – I want to the chance to have a career and professional satisfaction, but I know that to have a happy family I will need a guy to make it possible, and in return, I will make a happy family life possible for him also.
If feminism, is about equality, then surely it is about the equality of each person’s contribution to the family and not just money or status.
I do not know the answer. Honestly, I do not . . . I am only asking the question that many girls my age are asking. Please do not be condescending or cruel . . . please help me find the answer.
All the confusion I feel is captured and somehow resolved in this track.
Jealous Sprits:
I like this track as it starts with the girl feeling weak . . .but she grows stronger as the track goes on and it ends with her being powerful . . .but somehow still feminine.
I will not translate the words as I think it is more powerful and true if you just shut your eyes and go on the journey with her.
Chatmonchy – 恋愛スピリッツ
Well, i just said my piece on this and had a right rant on the transsexual kerfuffle threads on CiF a few weeks ago.
I never wanted kids, i have no problem with marriage. I would actually get married in a heartbeat if the right situation ever came up. I am not a feminist, i don’t even know what the hell that word means anymore. I’m an equallist. Why worry what anyone thinks, and especially western definitions? I sure don’t.
Hi Amylee ! ! !
I do not know why but I am thinking about it very much these days.
I think maybe I am trying to be logical about something that is basically emotional, i do not know really. Maybe I should stop thinking ! ! !
But i really I want to live a consistent and honest life, and things are very confused just now . . .
Well, ultimately and decisions are between yourself and your partner. It seems a bit useless to try to fit yourself into a definition of just a word. Especially if it’s what you see as a western definition, when you’re in a different culture altogether.
But if you’re trying to go a bit deeper than that, you have to ask yourself some other things. Say you and your partner decide to work it out as you envision it. So what do you want? From him, from others, and from society?
Now a big issue in the west is how are governments are structured. I have no idea whatsoever how yours is. But this is where a lot of the tension comes in over here. In terms of taxes, benefits, workplace issues – stuff like that. This is where i start to get into fights over here. You make a personal choice, it’s really no one else’s business at all. But if they’re forking out funds, or are expected to cover you at work, stuff like that – then it goes beyond your personal decisions. Even the UK and the US have very different laws and structures from each other.
Hi again Amylee ! ! !
I think my point of view is really immature. I
really can not decide what I want. But personally, i feel I would be happiest in a traditional role where I can care for a family. . . . .but at the same time I feel that is not what I want and just now I am attacking some options and in March will be going back to school to study for a masters degree . . . .
So really I do not know just now what is best or what I really want, , ,
I think you are beating yourself up over nothing Sakura – of course you can be a feminist and take care of your family!
When I was younger and more idealistic, I was pretty interested in feminist thought and read everything I could get my hands on, even the more supposedly ‘extreme’ stuff like Andrea Dworkin (personally, I don’t think there’s anything extreme at all about talking honestly about rape and violent pornography, but anyway…), but the more I read and thought, the more disillusioned I became and decided that being a feminist can mean whatever you want it to mean, even if it’s only a vague awareness that some things just ain’t quite right.
There’s a great song by a Finnish socially conscious (male!) punk band called Juggling Jugulars that (mostly) sums up my thoughts on this. I had actually put it on my list of 11 songs for my forthcoming Spill playlist, but it would fit much better here.
I couldn’t find it on Youtube, but I really wanted you to hear it, so I just spent an hour (in the office..ha ha!) struggling to upload it to Youtube. I got the length wrong, but it kind of worked!
The lyrics go:
This role of the m.a.n. is not made for me
All masculine boasting is so alienating.
I see it in your eyes how you hate my lifestyle
You´d like to send people like me straight to the x-files
How many generations will it take to achieve equality in every state?
How many years ´til we internalize this: Sex is nothing more than how you piss!
I hate this self-imprisonment in genderroles´ hold
It´s like wasting our lives ´cos of an ancient mold
How men treat women, how women treat men – the same old shit that should have been buried with Adam!
I alienate myself, you alienate yourself
Hi Pantersan ! ! !
I have not read any feminist theory since I did my exchange year at University in the USA.
We had a compulsory gender studies class which I really did not enjoy or find satisfying at all.
I really can not relate to much of the theory at all, even though in my stupid job I see sexism very much at first hand ! ! !
(Literally – If I had 10 bucks for each time a salesmen or client touched my butt I would be rich now ! ! !)
I loved the track ! ! !
” each time a salesmen or client touched my butt”
Ok, that’s really bad. totally uncool. Do you have any sort of legal recourse there? In theory here, we actually do. In reality it odesn’t really work out that way all the time.
Hi Amylee ! ! !
In theory of course i do – and I do have strict limits – I usually deal with things like that by politely but firmly saying that they should not do it. I use my best school teacher voice and formal Japanese and that stops it ! ! !
Once I did complain about a client who was pressurizing me and some other girls to go to a party at a hotel after an exhibition,
Of course most clients are really nice and gentlemanly, but there are some that sometimes step over the line.
oh…and it’s great that you are doing a Masters too…..my distance one is almost finished now and I really regret waiting until my mid-30s to do it. Good luck!
It is great that you will graduate for your Masters soon ! ! !
Good luck ! ! !
I had no idea you were that young, Panth. What is your masters in? I’m actually considering going back for one too. Not because i care about the piece of paper, but for the dicipline and focus and intense environment.
@Amy – well I’m 36, which is pretty young I suppose! Masters is in Applied Linguistics. I started it because I thought it would help me get a better job, closer to home. I’m not convinced that it actually will now, but I am really enjoying the studying and reading part and am already making a list of books from the course that I want to read AFTER the course is finished that aren’t directly relevant now!
I will have to think carefully about what I want to say in response, but the short answer is that you can be as girly as you want and still be a feminist. The issue is equality, that and changing male attitudes towards women.
Thank you Carole ! ! !
Oh-oh ! Is that the sound of a worm can being popped open I hear ?
Personally I think that people of either gender should simply follow their own hearts and do what is right for them and their families.
I gave up work to look after Ubuette from when she was 6 months old, this was partly a financial decision, partly a “I’m not letting my precious child be indoctrinated by some numpty in a nursery” and partly because I was emotionally better suited to childcare than my wife ( Well I think so and I think she’d agree )
The traditional roles have value but technological changes in particular mean that men and women can, in most cases, do an equal job of work in whatever field they chose to.
As for “looking girlie” , again , that’s up to you. The key, I think, is to decide who you are dressing for. Is it for yourself or to appeal to guys. Neither is necessarily bad as long as you are aware what you are doing.
Basically,I suppose, I think it should be about choice. Everyone should have the choice to live the life in the way that suits them. That being said, if you do decide to step outside of conventional societal norms you should really take responsibility for yourself. It’s not good moaning that it’s “not fair” ( ahem…guilty !) when other people don’t agree with your choices.
Look for a way to compromise if there’s conflict.
And, for God’s sake, don’t read books ! They are evil.
Hi Mr P ! ! !
I was thinking about you and Mrs P and Ubuette a lot actually. I think it is great that you made your choices so freely and how you have worked together ad a family is really so great ! ! !
Really ! ! ! – Mr P ! ! ! Of course girls do not dress for guys ! ! ! They really do not notice at all what you are wearing ! ! ! They could not tell Christian Louboutin from Wellington boots ! ! !
I actually like to dress for myself mostly as I like to feel confident and of course I like fashion and like to wear fashionable things.
I wouldn’t say the choices we made were entirely made “freely”, to be honest Mrs P didn’t really have much option but to return to work after Ubuette was born, she earned far more than I did ( or could) at the time.
Another thing to bear in mind is that things change over time, your plans and, indeed, desires might be different in 5 or 10 years time.
My advice ( terrible as usual) is to “go with the flow” and remember that “it takes two to tango”.
I like fashion too. The current fashion here is “rancid old fleece” , baggy , ill fitting jeans, wildly out of control hair and wellies.
Coming to a cat-walk near you soon !
Mr P ! ! !
I always listen to your advice as I think you are such a wise man ! ! !
p.s
And for God’s sake don’t take advice from me !
I’ve got a terrible track record when it comes to making good choices !
Your advice was still pretty wise though.
I am known as “The Great WIse One” ( by myself).
I stand by the “books” thing.
One must be careful what one believes.Some writers may not have your best interests at heart.
I expand out from writers, and say some people in general may not have your best interests at heart. Hence my refusal, yet again, to brand myself a feminist.
I am going to call you the Great Wise One all the time from now onwards ! ! !
Very honest – bravely honest – post, Sakura chan. My initial thoughts revolve around equality (of course) and freedom of choice. To me (and not being a woman, perhaps it’s not for me to say!), feminism means women should have the same opportunities as men, the same rights as men – in the workplace, in relationships, by law, etc – to choose how they want to live their lives. So on one level, if you decide that your choice is to be a ‘traditional wife’ (and you have made that choice freely), then I don’t see why that’s necessarily incompatible with being a feminist.
I guess my worry would be (and this may be less the case in Japan than the UK) that a man looking specifically for a woman to fulfil the traditional roles of wife and mother may not see women in as equal (to men) terms as one might hope. He might expect you to perform certain roles within the relationship/home – and suddenly bang goes your freedom of choice!
I guess also, in your particular situation, I would ask myself why this craving for traditional roles right now? What does it say about how you’re feeling – about your life now and about the future? I may be wrong but it sounds like this may be a period of some uncertainty for you (with the Masters coming up, etc). And perhaps what you crave right now is certainty/stability. And so the ‘known’ of being a wife and mother (perhaps like your own mother before you?) seems very appealing. But the stability and certainty of those traditional roles could perhaps in time became stifling, constricting?
My feeling is that if you find the right guy (and maybe you already have) who respects you as an equal human being and who is committed to you as a partner for life, that may provide the security you crave. And then between you, you can work out who performs what roles in the relationship and (fingers crossed!) family based on what you each want and choose/what makes sense for the two of you in your life and circumstances (with the freedom to renegotiate those roles should either of you so choose), not based solely on who has what genitals!
Caveat: The genitals thing means you will have to do the child-bearing – sorry about that!
I quite agree bish. For me being a feminist means I can do what I want to do. That is the ideal, it doesn’t really work like that, but it should.
The trick is to find yourself a feminist man and negotiate to get to a practical division of labour in the home and talk about who does childcare and who cleans the toilet, try not to drift in gender roles you’re not happy with. Being a feminist shouldn’t mean you have to wear asexual clothes and be serious all the time, it should allow you to be yourself
* or woman or whichever partner/s you prefer (sorry that was very heterosexual of me)
Hi Beth ! ! !
I think the problem is that whatever one partner decides then it means the other partner needs to also make choices that are compatible and support the other one. So my choices need that my partner supports them and also the other way.
I really do not know what a feminist man is ! ! ! I hope they are more attractive than they sound like ! ! !
I think you’ll find that most male ‘Spillers are essentially feminist men (in that we see women as equals) and we are of course DEVASTATINGLY attractive.
yes, I suppose I meant mean who see women as equals and are prepared to open a dialogue about roles in relationships. I regard my husband as a feminist man and he’s super gorgeous! Sorry it sounded bad.
Really, I suppose that a partner should respect the other’s desires, opinions and needs and not automatically assume that gender=a certain kind of behaviour, works both ways, but in all relationships some compromise is going to have to happen to have equality with each other, I think.
“we are of course DEVASTATINGLY attractive.”
I’ve seen your picture. You are indeed.
Thanks Amy! Cheque (aka check) is in the post…
“He might expect you to perform certain roles within the relationship/home – and suddenly bang goes your freedom of choice!”
You have to be careful about this one too – it can go both ways. She might expect him to perform certain roles too – and there goes his freedom of choice.
Hi Amylee ! ! !
I do recognise that my choices would mean my partner would have to adopt roles that support them.
It can get tricky though. Why is it you who gets the choice, and him who has to adapt to them? That can breed a lot of resentment down the road, on either side.
Dunno if you have the same economic problems there that we have in the US and UK, but we have some brutal unemployment problems. It’s shaken up a few gender roles for sure.
Hi Amylee ! ! !
You are right of course. That is why it is so important to have the right partner so you can support each other without sacrificing the things that are important to you.
Thank you Bish ! ! !
I think young guys are not so strict in their views about traditional roles these days, and of course most couples need both to work for financial reasons but in Japan the assumption is always that you will stop work when you have kids to look after them, ( which I would want anyway ) . .
Also my BF is very nice and does not try to force a role on me and is very supportive of me a lot actually.and he puts up with my moods ( I am famous for being complicated ! ! ! )
I started thinking about this as I met a friend on Sunday and she has a great career but works so hard and seems to sacrifice a lot in her personal life . . .umm . . .I need to think some more ! ! !
Oh Gosh ! ! ! Honestly The SPill is like a male beauty pageant ! ! !
There are so many attractive guys here . . . . but they are mostly already taken ! ! !
It’s ok. I have enough on my plate with real life guys here to deal with, without having to sort stuff with the devastatingly attractive Spill guys too
I’ll just admire from afar.
I refuse to call myself a feminist because somewhere along the line, it became not about equality, but about special rights. Now this i disagree with. (Been over this ad nauseam on CiF so i’ll keep it brief here). Equality should mean equality of opportunity, but it’s not a guarantee of entitlement to equality of outcome. Things like all-woman shortlists are anathema to me.
Hi Amylee ! ! !
I agree with you that all people should have the equal opportunities.
Of course what you do with that opportunity is up to you . . . .
I would say it’s about equality and respect for both sexes but as my son calls me a tomboy I may be confused.
Hi Ali
I can not imagine you as a tomboy ! ! !
About as un-feminine as a feminine person can be.
Me too, Ali. I’m not in the least feminine, but not because of feminism, but just my personality as is. Sometimes i like to dress up, more often than not i don’t. It balances though. I seem to be attracted to very tall and very pretty, somewhat feminine guys. (I’m small).
May I just say that I think the views expressed so far are pretty sensible , both from the guys and the girls ( ducks for cover).
Part of the problem, possibly, as with most “isms” is that the more strident voices tend to be the ones that garner the attention of the media and, over time, become dominant.
What it boils down to ( he says, thinking on his feet) is how humans relate to other humans , no matter what gender.
I try to always live up to the motto “Do as you would be done by”.
Feminism is a funny old word isn’t it?
and it’s just a word….
*do what you like, and like what you do – when single – with no one to answer to.
*compromise fairly (the BEST you BOTH can) – when a couple.
*dedicate yourself to your children (when/if you have them) that’s true for both sexes or same sex partners – all children need to be rounded is love and attention … but maintain sanity with options for what the adult/s need to keep them happy in the relationship. A sad embittered parent is no fun. There will always be compromise.
Can you be a “girl” and a feminist?
I’ve been thinking about this a lot lately – triggered by AIP’s use of the word ‘girl’ – the Ms. would question if any female over the age of 17(ish) should in fact be described as a ‘girl’ – them being women and all that .. and that thought process has a bearing on the infantalisation of the adult population in society getting more and more extreme (this has a knock on effect of to the sexualisation of children too – they are being pushed into acting grown up – while the grown ups revert to childishness).
But girl is just a word too – I dislike the use of the word ladies .. to me it has so many connotations of class and females being in their place – why should a ladies day etc, be separate? Just as Gentlemen’s clubs sound just as disturbing.
A lot of my female friends – who are staunchly independent (some use the term feminist – some don’t) use the expression ladies night out – but then – I’ve always been invited on girls/ladies nights out anyway … words are a bizarre minefield…. individual personalities are complex.
I’d never thought about the use of ‘girl’ being demeaning (to some people) until the Ms. discussed it… now when I think about it – using the term for a fully grown woman does seem odd. But she works protecting children, and uses the word kids to describe them – it’s something that is less formal and puts vulnerable children at ease … but I’ve grown up around farms all my life – a kid is the offspring of a goat to me .. not of a human. It’s really just word taste, and how that word effects you.
Feminism should be what you make of it – if you feel comfortable doing what you do – then you ARE being honest with yourself and that is being female. If you are not being oppressed or downtrodden by anyone in your love life – then that is feminism.
But then …..
If you want to get into the divide in wages in a male dominated society –
Or indeed, why it is such a male dominated society?
If you want to question why some American universities started ‘How Not to get raped’ classes, targeting females – instead of starting a ‘Why you should NEVER rape’ class targeted at males.
Or if, as the UK is doing now – the destruction of the female dominated work places by a collection of male millionaires in the name of austerity measures …
Or etc etc etc .. then they are questions you may have to rise up with fists to answer.
As for the image of Barbie and Ken in your post – a whole rainforest has been destroyed writing essays on the idiotic body shape of Barbie and her giving little girls unrealistic body issues – and the dim witted Ken doesn’t exactly enhance males standing in society… but they are JUST TOYS.
It is a toy made using a huge chunk of plastic – the manufacture of which will destroy the planet, leaving nothing for them to play in anyway… give both boys and girls a wooden spoon – some pens – wool for wigs – and let their imagination’s run riot. That’s better.
That’s solved that issue***
.
)
.
***(except with anyone who collects dolls –
P.S – I know nothing.
Hi Shane ! ! !
Gosh that is a long and thoughtful post ! ! !
I will have to read it again and think about it.
Thank you for reading and posting ! ! !
Time for bed now ! ! !
I use the word girl, intentionally. I refuse to use the word “woman” too, it’s way too subjective with way too much baggage attached. I actually prefer the word “female”. (But on the transsexual threads i had to question even the use of that term.)
Feminism is a form of insisting on human rights, to my mind. Men assume they have these rights and yet women in so many societies still assume/get told they don’t, that their rights are granted by men. I weep when I hear female vicars argue that women have no right to become bishops, for example. It is vitally important for human society to keep examining the status of women.
The problem is maintaining a consistent model of feminist behaviour. Personally, I don’t believe that you can be a “girl” and a feminist. I also don’t believe that you can be a slutwalker and a feminist. Feminism necessitates a mature assessment of both female and male roles and both girly and slutty behaviour generate difficulties for men as it forces them to play particular roles in response, whether they want to or not. I’m not saying for one second that women shouldn’t behave in such ways, rather that they don’t have an automatic right to expect the reactions from men (or other women, I suppose) that they want. Feminism has been used by some women to ‘correct’ an historic imbalance between the sexes by treating men as subservient and not worthy of consideration. Every person has equal rights and is worthy of the same level of consideration.
The mating game and having children complicate the situation, of course, but the ideal must be – as has been said – a mature negotiation of duties and roles between the people involved. Just because someone likes behaving in a particular way doesn’t mean that it’s reasonable for them to do so.
Yet there are rights that women assume that they have, which many men these days, quite rightly, call into question. Especially glaring in divorce / child support / child care cases. Also in many workplace situations as well. Incarceration and criminal prosecution. Did you know that more men than women are raped in the US every year?
It could be reasonably argued that women have those rights around childcare because male legislators deem that it’s ‘naturally’ a woman’s role to look after the kids.
No, I did not know that more men than women are raped in the US every year. I’m not 100% sure that’s true (it presumably depends on prison rape statistics, prison being where the US likes to keep its young males) but even so, the vast majority of rapes are committed by men, no matter who or what they rape. It’s a crime of violence and opportunity perpetuated by males who can’t or won’t exercise reasonable self-control.
“male legislators deem that it’s ‘naturally’ a woman’s role to look after the kids”
Do you figure that a lot of women object to this?
Yeah, i rechecked those rape stats and they might be dodgy. Prison rapes are certainly the biggest factor. Yes, men do the raping. But in terms of sentencing and incaration, men get a much rougher ride than females.
A problem with ‘girly’ behavior (and i don’t confine this just to females, it applies equally to young and pretty men as well) is that at some point down the road in life, you get older, and it’s going to cease to be charming and effective.
I think that Ubu said it best – make your choices as you see fit, both as an individual and with a partner. But then, no whining allowed.
Hi Sakura,
You have the wonderful assets of youth and intelligence, so the world is your oyster right now! I think it’s great that you are thinking about what you want for the future, and the impact of the life choices you make.
I agree with lots of what has been said above, especially:
You have been very brave and honest in your post, and it’s probably no accident that you are weighing up what you want for your future at this particular point in time (well said bishbosh!);
I have worked in the field of equal opportunities in employment, and I would say that equal access to the opportunities that life offers matters much more to me than labels like ‘Feminist’;
Being yourself, including enjoying clothes or flirting with men, is completely compatible with supporting equal access to life’s opportunities for yourself and for others;
I don’t believe you should have to choose between using your capacity to nurture or your intellect, home or career. It’s reasonable to want both, and not something you could switch off to please somebody else. If you are drawn to the idea of being a ‘stay at home mother’ you can prioritise them at different periods of your life. But you do need to be confident that the person you commit to can respect and support your life choices.
Co-incidentally, I read you post having just come home from having a conversation with my daughter, over a coffee, in which we touched on the subject of life choices and partners. My daughter said that, when she was dating, she was always very proactive in talking to men about what they wanted out of life. Before making an emotional commitment she wanted be sure that, when the whirl of the initial attraction settled down, there would be something mutually sustaining for the long term. I felt very proud of her!
What a beautiful cat!
I always had (and have) those conversations with men about what they want out of life. As i knew fairly early on that i never wanted kids under any circumstance, i thought that was a pretty important thing to discover at the start. If men wanted kids, which most did, then it was like – sorry, you’ll have to look elsewhere.
Kudos for the self-knowledge! I’m still learning..
Well, there are many other things too. I’ll probably never have any money in life. I couldn’t care less if a guy has money or not. I don’t make enough to support them, but they don’t have to support me either. If they’re an arty sort and want the freedom to pursue that, than maybe i’m the right sort of person. Same deal if they like to travel – i’m totally game for that. I’m not a stickler for sexual preference either – i have no problem dating gay / bisexual guys either.
What amazes me is that i figure i’m pretty old and beat up now (I’m 52), and blessedly past the point of being able to have kids, but guys still (admittedly rarely, not regularly) show up in life who interest me, and who, kind of inconceivably, are interested in me.
Only 52? Why wouldn’t they be interested?
because i don’t have any money? I’m anti-social, and i look like shit
Heck and double heck. You’ve more character than many another and that’s what counts. And you’re younger than me so get a grip, woman!!
As the father of a young woman I’m aware that the concept of feminism is confusing these days. Certainly in this (western) society there is a vague perception that the sociopolitical battles were won ‘back then’, that equality is somehow a given and that the reason women are not receiving fair pay and are not more equally represented in most areas of life where power and influence reside must be down to their own behaviours. So I’d tend to separate out the need for an ongoing political & philosophical ‘Feminism’ and would continue to support demands for positive action to be taken to promote and support change and challenge entrenched male power on a global basis. Perhaps it’s worth remembering that feminism was also known as women’s liberation, a clearer concept ultimately?
It gets tricky here though. I’m female, but also i don’t have kids. So i see many workplace and political issues via the prism of a single person with no kids, more than as a female.
In personal life, i couldn’t care less what the academics and protelysizers argue about. It’s just, you keep nattering on, ladies, and i’ll just keep on living my life as i see fit.
But when you get into the macro arena, and the political, that’s when i feel the need to get somewhat involved. When in my country, there are those who want to take away my right to do with my own body as i see fit. When they want to limit the rights of 2 people to get married because they happen to be the same sex – just pay your taxes and shut up about being equal citizens. (Congrats, UK!) In workplace issues (which i avoid by not working real jobs). In taxation and spending issues, benefit eligibility, etc.
We have a situation here – our infrastructure is in tatters and we desperately need investment. We also have a massive unemployment problem, and could use the jobs too. So the idea was for government to spend on infrastructure as a stimulus. Well, some bunch of feminists pissed and moaned because the majority of jobs would have gone to men. Nice one ladies, so we get no jobs and no infrastructure now. Take a bow (or a curtsy).
In the UK i believe (correct me if i’m wrong), the majority of government workers being laid off are female, which is where a lot of the complaints seem to be coming from. But in better times, the majority of gov’t workers hired were also female, were they not? Makes sense (whether or not you agree with layoffs at all is not the point here). Now if they said, well, we’re going to lay off females and not males (or vice versa), that would be a legitimate point of contention.
“the majority of government workers being laid off are female, which is where a lot of the complaints seem to be coming from. But in better times, the majority of gov’t workers hired were also female, were they not?”
Amy –
First question is why are there a higher percentage of ♀ in public sector (government) work?
… are the hours more flexible and the businesses more liable to agree hours around school time?
My mum’s jobs involved a lot of flexi – time – all built up and worked around school holidays and picking up time from school – (school here finishes a good two hours before a normal working day).
When my dad worked for other people ♂ hours were strict and adhered too.
To put this in perspective – my dad mostly organised people on farms and knew when the seasons changed – and when to plant stuff. Not exactly on the dot time keeping needed.
My mum was so much cleverer than the departments she worked for that during the first Gulf war – she worked out the typing she was doing involved the diagrams for head up display units on fighter planes – and the calculations were out – meaning missiles would miss their targets by 50 meters. Her dad was an aviation engineer. My mum’s careers stop/started. She resigned in disgust – she probably saved a shed load of innocent lives – but she was a glorified typist to them. And this was back in the day.
… With the jobs offering more part time work and shift work the ♀ becomes the default primary carer – (that’s if she’s the one that goes for the public sector job, it’s not all one sex, I know) this has a knock on effect that those jobs usually have a low ceiling of promotion and wage structure. You jump above that first floor level then you loose the flexibility in your hours – whichever partner has taken on that caring – flexibility for the children – will be stuck at that level for at least a decade. That decade may leave you out of touch with work you are trained to do – so you might never recover. It is the lower payed partner, often the ♀, who takes this ‘any old job’ – leaving the other half (often ♂) with the career. It’s changing rapidly with my peers – but the lack of either person having a so called career leaves entire families balancing precariously.
So onto jobs that are in caring/socially responsible fields?
They are not all performed by ♀ – but they are industries with a higher ♀ ratio – jobs done because they are believed in – not because they are well paid and cash rich.
Now you put those simplistic definitions together and then look at how the UK government has in two years made it easier for you to be sacked, they have made it harder (if not impossible) for you to take any unfair dismissal cases to court, they have offered money/shares to completely give up your worker rights and they have stripped people of those working rights.
They have created a situation through austerity that people are so desperate for work that they are in many many cases being under paid and workers are having to accept wage freezes because of fear of redundancy as certain employers take advantage of the age of the Con/Dem induced austerity economics. The public sector workers are being relentlessly and unfairly targeted – along side the less well off in general.
When public sector pensions were negotiated:
The average pension was £5,600 a year
For women that figure was below £4,000
For workers earning over £15,000, they have to pay on average 50 per cent more in to their pensions and have to work longer, for less.
Paying 50 per cent more into their pension is the equivalent of a three per cent pay cut.
This was negotiated and THEN they attacked their wages again.
If you had no responsibilities you’d walk – but they have targeted those usually desperate to have the ability to work and fit it around their child care responsibilities … you could have walked and got better pay and the same flexibility at tesco – but the government have created slave schemes, where their friends the owners of big business get the unemployed to work for nothing taking all the low page jobs out of contention. Brilliant.
The legitimate point of contention is for both ♀ and ♂ – it just so happens they have abused easy sections of society (for them) with a larger proportion of ♀ workers.
There’s a whole host of other details that is turning this whole county into a 1950′s: ♀ at home, ♂ go out to work and provide for the family (as long as he’s a multimillionaire already) – but it’s another thread – not here.
My brain aches – sorry for the rant.
Shane -
Nah, it’s ok to rant. And i’m most likely grasping at straws here as far as the UK goes – we’re very different over here.
But – and this may well not be the actual situation in the UK at all – while a woman takes time off to have a child – someone is covering her work while she’s gone. This person can well get shafted. Flextime – sure. As long as it’s equally distributed between all employees. If only the mommies get it – well, those picking up slack or get the crap hours get the shaft. I see things from the pov of a childless person.
Flexi work – should really be ideal for everyone. There’s a legal requirement for UK employers to listen to any reasonable requests. So not just mums or dads around school runs. This works for artists and band members too – if the company is intelligent and the hours don’t need to be set then it is a blessing.
I agree, if the work is just filled by those already there (to cover maternity) it’s rubbish.
But for example -the company that gives me my pocket money (i.e. my paid job – not design) took me on as temp to cover maternity leave – I swapped around when different people took time out – it was ace – I can’t stand being stuck in the same place over and over week in week out – people didn’t come back, people went off sick and screwed the company – I ended up with more work. This would suit me – single or in a couple with kids – because it’s my personality.
It wouldn’t suit others – the team that I’m associated with are all contracted 9 -5.30 – when I had to work with them – I tore my hair out with frustration. They had to fill 8 hours a day – this involved faffing about – life is too short to waste at pretending to work. I can’t do that it drives me crazy. I have contracts every two weeks to finish – I work hard, well and fast, I then go home to design. The company gets a worker focused on doing a job well, I don’t ever see any bosses or clients to swear at – people don’t get in my bloody way while trying to work cos there’s no-one about and I’ve never had a legit complaint about my standard of work – in 6 years. Unlike the contracted staff who are always up for disciplinaries monthly. I earn less, have no security, but I’m not wasting my life.
There’s so many different personalities that should be catered for – I used to work next to a fruit processing plant – the bands I knew did the night shift – then got a crate of beer and we organised really cheep rehearsal time at 9am for them because it wasn’t used at all during the morning – everyone won.
When my dad got his own bit of land – we all worked there peace time – what you do is what you get – it was brilliant to see a field full of young mums, almost retired grandmas and granddads and little teenage goths and punks – all working together really hard – while pre-school rugrats scrambled in the mud…. just so they could finish and get on with their other lives – everyone was happy.
Unfortunately – for people like us – it’s really hard to find that flexibility – whereas it should be the norm, because one persons crap working hours are another persons most productive.
Way off topic – better do some work (for myself now).
Yeah, all of those reasons are why i don’t work real jobs, and i usually do restaurant work because i like to work nights. If i work at night, i’ll get stuff done during the day. Then i’m ready to face people and have conversations. If i work during the day, i’m not going to get anything done when i get home. And i’m done with talking to people too.
You may not believe this, but at the time before your election, the LibDems had on their platform on their website that they supported flex time and paid leaves of absences for everyone, not just maternity. Nick Clegg may have even come out and said that too, can’t remember. This made me a big fan of theirs (in addition to other civil liberties issues they suppoted at the time). Sometime after the election i went back on their website, and that bit seemed to have been magically removed from their site and platform.
LibDems said a lot that people believed – and sensible things at that – but putting it in writing isn’t the same as getting the chance to put it into action.
Jumping into bed with the Tories has been the death of them.
Like Blair and his joy at an illegal war against his voters wishes – it makes it worse that these people lied – I have no expectations from the Conservatives – they are born into the killing of innocence, the stepping on fellow man, and the shafting of everyone for monetary gain. That’s their class system that they want to preserve.
Politics has been killed by Labours past leaders trying to please the banks, the arms trade and oil industry – while Liberals have sold what they had of a soul to get a sniff at power, helping Tories ruin the country when they were NOT voted into power.
“The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which…” party they represent.
Believe me, it’s the same over here with Democrats and Republicans, i’ll never vote for either again. At least with Republicans, you pretty much know what you’re getting. Dems try to look like the good guys, but they’re stealth sleazebags and whoremasters for votes. It’s 3rd parties and indies for me from now on. (It’s a bit better here, when we vote other than R or D, we’re not voting a whole party in. So no coalitions, and indies can side with other parties on individual issues, but don’t have to across the board.)
Don’t know if you’d be interested in a Jungian take on the masculine side of the feminine and vice versa but these slim volumes are an easy read. Robert A. Johnson – She and He
Well, inevitably my take on this starts from an intellectual position; my brief definition of ‘feminism’ (not least for the benefit of my students when I teach this subject) is that it’s an approach to understanding the world that takes ‘women’ as a key analytical category. The moment you think about the world in these terms – considering how the social position of women, their expected roles, their image in culture, their access to power, their public roles, their experiences etc. might differ from those of men – you immediately, I think, are confronted with the historic facts of inequality, control and oppression. It’s not just a matter of bad men being greedy, selfish or whatever, it’s an entire social and cultural system that has traditionally placed women in an inferior position (that I’m happy to label ‘patriarchy’). Yes, things are substantially better than they were, especially in more ‘westernised’ countries, but we’re still a long way from equality of opportunity and equality of treatment. How often do we imagine that young men get felt up as a matter of course by clients, managers etc.? It does happen, but for the most part in quite limited circumstances.
I would say that seeing the world in these terms then automatically calls for action; I suppose there may be people who can see injustice and feel quite happy about it, but I’m not one of them. This doesn’t just mean treating individual women as equals, it means trying to restructure society on a more equal basis – and, given that men still hold an much greater proportion of the power, are judged by different standards etc., that can as far as I’m concerned include positive action to even things up, since it still isn’t a genuinely level playing field.
It isn’t easy, because we’re brought up in cultures that are still, I think, remarkably sexist, and we imbibe an awful lot of those attitudes without noticing. This goes both ways; male stereotypes and expected male roles can be just as much a prison and source of pain for some men as female stereotypes and roles are for many women. The main difference is that male stereotypes tend to be associated with power, activity, authority and the like, so if you play up to them it’s potentially an advantage; female stereotypes tend to emphasise passivity, inferiority, submission. Choosing to live up to those stereotypes, then, is potentially risky.
Yes, the ideal must be free choice, negotiation and compromise. Always tricky, though. When I discovered feminism at university, I found it very difficult to accept the way that my mother had chosen to be a housewife and helpmeet, despite her academic qualifications and abilities; yes, it’s what she wanted to do, but it also involved an enormous amount of compromise that seemed to end up suiting my father very nicely. Mrs A and I have a fairly equitable division of labour (I cook, she irons, we both clean), but there are still issues, not least (from my perspective) the way that she slips into “you’re the main breadwinner, you sort it out” mode when it suits her.
Do what makes you happy, of course. I suppose I would only add that you should try to be certain that it will make you happy as you, rather than simply believing what our culture tells you ought to make you happy as a woman. Compromises are always necessary in any relationship – but if you find yourself having to compromise yourself, not just your convenience, then there’s a problem.
I agree that we’ve come a long way but still have a very long way to go. We have the vote; our husbands are not entitled to beat us (though the police may not take our phone call seriously); The Equal Pay Act is 50 years old this year, but still hasn’t been fully implemented. Sadly there is no quick fix, and where to start?
Slow as it is, I believe that the legal framework is an important mechanism for promoting equality. It formally enacts a view that discrimination is unacceptable in our country – could I say that this is my ‘Maternalistic’ view?. It also sets out the behaviours that are prescribed and proscribed in the fields that it can legitimately (and viably) cover – employment and the provision of goods and services. It can’t, nor would we want it to, apply to our private and personal interactions and relationships. However, changing behaviours is one of the more effective ways of changing attitudes, so there is reason to hope that anti-discriminatory behaviours required in the workplace will in time translate to less discriminatory attitudes in general. Is the complaint (excuse) that there it too much ‘political correctness’ losing its clout?
You’re asking two questions really – one about enjoying “girly” / Kawaii-y things and being a feminist; one about being a mother who leaves the paid workforce for some years to bring up children, and being a feminist. I think Abahachi has got it right. I think the answer is a definite YES to both, but there are pitfalls.
MummyP has been our homemaker / stay-at-home mum to the children for 8 years now, and she does get frustrated with the amount of domestic routine. It’s better than going out for paid work and still doing most of the chores, which the figures seem to show is the experience of many women. She keeps her brain going with writing, and being a school governor. I’ve always taken charge of night duty with the children, so at least she’s not done so much 24/7 mothering.
I like the Feminism word, in fact I love it. I take amylee’s point about association with quotas and special pleadings, but I’ve no problem with that as a tactical move. The Labour Party in Britain has half-decent quantity and quality of women Members of Parliament, partly thanks to all-women shortlists.
I’m delighted, for what it’s worth, that you want to be, and describe yourself as, a feminist.
Until there are equal rights, pay, choices & treatment; feminism & other isms are still needed to challenge the forces of chauvinism.
Sakura – if you are worried about being forced into a set gender role, maybe my (our) story will help reassure you that not only in society, but within relationships too, gender roles change all the time.
On the surface me and Mrs Panther are a typical Japanese family (err….except for my deep-set grey/green eyes and awkward Englishness of course!); wife stays at home looking after baby, cooking dinner, making (really good!) marmelade and sewing baby clothes, husband gets a crowded commuter train to Tokyo Monday to Friday, comes home stressed and tired…….But scratch the surface, go back a few years, or just talk to Mrs Panther for 30 seconds and it’ll be blatantly obvious that she is far from the ‘little woman’ at home.
When we first lived together we had similar kinds of jobs in companies and shared domestic duties pretty equally. After Mrs Panther started her business (with no help at all from anyone – except me, which isn’t saying much!) I changed to a job at a company I hated, doing a job I didn’t like much because it gave me the flexibility to take the 6 or 8 weeks (mostly unpaid) holiday a year that was needed for us to go to Scandinavia to buy stuff for the business. At this time I did ALL of the housework (except cooking – Mrs Panther refused to eat my culinary masterpieces! I did do all the grocery shopping and chopped the veggies etc ready for it all to be put together) because I wanted to support Mrs Panther and her business, yes, but just because I had the time and she didn’t. This set-up lasted about 4 or 5 years.
When we moved to Kanagawa (my name might be on the deeds to the house, but the hefty deposit was paid for mostly from profits from Mrs Panthers business) we put the business on hiatus, I switched to a company I really like working for, doing a job I much preferred and started my Masters. The housework duties switched and I concentrated on my career a bit more. I do make sure I’m home by six o’clock-ish in time for baby bathing and playtime, but wish I was home a bit more. When I finish studying later this year, Mrs Panther will start up her business again (probably just at weekends), the housework will be a bit more equal and we’ll be right back where we started!
Oh…..and those baby clothes she’s been sewing? This week she decided on a brand name and ordered a load of labels to start up a little side business. Why? Well, because she can! And so could YOU!
Mrs Panther would never think of herself as a feminist, but she’s the strongest, most independent, practical, can-do-anything-she-puts-her-mind-to person I know. Once she was asked by Japanese Vogue to feature in an article celebrating ‘female entrepreneurs’ in Japan – she turned them down, of course, saying it was a load of bollocks and that she didn’t have the time or interest for that kind of rubbish!
I should also say that none of this was planned or thought out and I hadn’t even realised how our roles had changed (and changed back) until I started thinking about your post yesterday. I’m sure a lot of couples have similar experiences, it’s just a matter of whatever works!
So, I suppose that what I want to say is that nothing is set in stone and taking care of your family doesn’t mean abandoning your skills and intelligence or compromising your ‘feminism’.
HI Panthersan ! ! !
That is really great ! ! ! I feel inspired by your and Mrs P story ! ! !
this is so interesting in so many ways…GEEKY ACADEMIC WARNING: So, I actually have a brief forthcoming article in the International Journal of Feminist Studies about some of the implications of all this within the academy…what I wrote there in part (as in, here are the first three paragraphs, more or less) was that whatever otherness I choose to claim (South Louisiana, Jewish, socialist, feminist) or is foist on me (often the same), I am inescapably a tall, white, heterosexual male in a society and state at a time and place and in a profession and discipline in which those essential descriptors remain (too) powerful.
My feminist consciousness began early, but the birth of our older daughter made it visceral. Growing up, feminism was present but seemed second to the civil rights, anti-war, and anti-nuclear struggles that engaged my parents. This led to well-intentioned (if not as thoughtful as I imagined) academic understandings, made more tangible through marriage to an amazing old school feminist. Our daughter made it real. However instrumental the trajectory, it deepens as I watch our daughters wrestle with a world hostile to women. It is particularly exasperating as our older daughter navigates, albeit with grace, aplomb, and impressively little anger, the shifting shoals and treacherous reefs of today’s academy.
This is not a feminist and minority scholars’ problem. This is an everybody problem that demands our attention and intentions. It is about the lives we lead as scholars and teachers in communities of learning and about what we model for our students, the staff and colleagues we work with, and perhaps not least the administrators, donors, and legislators who disproportionally determine what we do and how.
And I still struggle with questions of whether or not a man can truly be a feminist and I hear–loud and clear–amyleee about equalityism (see my lame point about this being an everybody problem). I will also tell you that raising two, smart, mouthy, half-Jewish/half-pagan (from a deeply Catholic background), feminist daughters in Central Texas has been a trip and a half.
Can’t resist posting this little number either:
“Feminists we’re calling you
Please report to the front desk!”
Hi Sakura, I’ll avoid the theory cos others are far superior at that.
I come from a white, working-class background that has certain beliefs about how gender roles should be and I grew up absorbing them. I also grew up in a family where the roles were obviously not so clear cut as “the women in the kitchen gender roles” would have you believe and neither were the roles I observed in my family’s friends and neighbours. Since then I’ve always tried to operate in in non-stereotypical ways and dismiss the beliefs I grew up with from my head. It’s difficult when it’s so easy to be one of the group.
Howver, I particularly don’t like sexism. The worst example I saw was my sister building up a really good clientele at a major record shop chain store in the 1980s. She ordered great indie music and promoted it and also successfully handled the mainstream stuff. When it came time to select a new boss she was passed over for the male (who took all the credit) and the prettiest female who was great at flirting with the reps but didn’t realise the great deals she was getting was stuff that was going in the bargain bin. The shop went downhill from that moment on.
She now runs her own business (nothing to do with music). Even today, reps will come in and ask her when the boss is in, or talk to my father rather than her, if he happens to be visiting her. Such reps that operate with a stereotypical view of the world rarely get a second chance.
In order to avoid operating with such stereotypes in my own life, I constantly have to ask myself what does that person feel about this? What would that person like to do? Why are they doing that? As a white male I don’t have to do that at all because the societies I’ve lived in have been rigged by white males for their benefit, but such consideration of others helps produce higher quality work and a better society for me, Ms Fuel and my daughter and two sons.
You ask yourself can I be a girl and be a feminist? My instinctive reaction is to say be a person and strive for equality. Also, never lose sight of the fact that some will want to take away any rights you have won to be treated as an equal. I could be a ‘lad’ all my life and never have any responsibility or very little at least and still have more advantages and privileges than any female because gender stereotypes favour males. I know plenty of such lads.
But back to discussing work. the male-female cooperation within most of the work communities I work for is pretty good. Most of the workers are very clear about the benefits the initial wave of feminism in Finland brought and fight to keep them. There is also clear awareness that there is not parity between males and females but people are still striving to achieve that. Being aware of how the other gender is thinking is part of that. Compromise and finding space where all can benefit is difficult but in no way impossible.
In the Fuel household I’ve worked to support Ms Fuel through her studies when she wanted a career change. I’ve also stopped working or gone part-time to allow Ms. Fuel to go back to full-time work after she had finished breast-feeding the children (luckily, I can make my own space for work). I’ll always encourage and support others attempting to make this world more equal and bearable for others. Partly because:
No man is an island,
Entire of itself.
Each is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thine own
Or of thine friend’s were.
Each man’s death diminishes me,
For I am involved in mankind.
Therefore, send not to know
For whom the bell tolls,
It tolls for thee.
John Donne
And maybe some will find the language sexist or Eurocentric but I’ll take the main idea there and say we extend it to all people and the world.
Okay, I’ve gone off on a rant and probably raised more questions than I’ve answered but there it is.
Cheerio
Really good to hear people’s stories and read well-thought-out posts.
Hi Everyone ! ! !
I really want to say thank you to everyone for their great comments ! ! !
I have read them all and their is so much to think about in them all.
Thank you all so much ! ! !