There’s that moment, in the career of almost every artist or group*, when it becomes unmistakably clear that something has gone wrong and it’s all downhill from here; the magic has been lost, they’ve forgotten exactly what it was that made them great in the first place. The concept of jumping the shark may have first been applied to tv series, but it applies to music just as much. It’s the moment when the singer gets religion and starts making unfortunate pronouncements about homosexuality. When the songwriter who made his name with gritty street-level realism starts writing songs about the difficulty of finding trustworthy domestic staff. When half the original members of the group have left, and they’re reduced to playing the bass player’s free-form jazz number.
This isn’t a challenge about those moments.** It’s about what happens afterwards. Because decline is almost never immediate or absolute; every so often, long after they’ve jumped the shark in musical terms, once-great artists can still remind us of why they were once great. This can be as frustrating as it’s wonderful; yes, the one great song means that you haven’t completely wasted your money in buying their latest album, but why the hell can’t they manage to write more than one per album, or finally call it a day rather than constantly holding out this faint possibility that that they might produce a great record again (I’m looking at you, REM…)? What we’re looking for this week are those diamonds in the mud, songs that sparkle despite (or maybe even because of) being surrounded by all the evidence of decay and decadence.
Here’s my number one choice. Black Sabbath: Ozzy, Iommi, Butler and Ward, right? Paranoid, War Pigs, Iron Man, Sabbath Bloody Sabbath. There’s a case to be made, I understand, for the Dio era, but I don’t think I’ve ever met anyone with a kind word for the album they made with Ian Gillan. As for Black Sabbath featuring Tony Iommi (and no other original members), with ex-Deep Purple druggie, sorry, bass player, Glenn Hughes on vocals… I think it’s really rather a good album. Sounds nothing much like classic Sabbath – intentionally so, as this was originally going to be Iommi’s first solo album – but it’s a classy bit of bluesy heavy rock with some great songs. Shame about the controversy over the Sabbath legacy, and shame about the absolute shambles that then followed when the band tried to tour the record; Sabbath continued their descent into the abyss, and it’s a pity this record was dragged down with them…
Black Sabbath (featuring Tony Iommi): Seventh Star
Incidentally, in the interests of those of us with aged computers and/or slow broadband, it would be great if you could try to post links to YouTube videos rather than embedding the videos themselves…
*I said almost every artist, TFD.
** ‘Cos that would be negative and depressing.
Once Fujimoto Miki and Yoshizawa Hitomi left Morning Musume things were never the same again . . . them chemistry changed . . .or maybe I grew up a little bit . . .but MM did make a really great track after that called Resonant Blue.
There are three version of the video but I like the “rehearsal” version
(I am doing the links thing – I am not sure if this is what we agreed for challenges . . . )
Morning Musume – Resonant Blue
Brilliant challenge and i’m sure this one could run and run. In many instances, i think the ‘shark-jumping’ moment, is when a band who have toiled for years without great success but had great reviews/cult followings, suddenly go overground. Not always, but there’s often a correlation. I’m going to have a think about this, but in the meantime, i’m going to leave you with Rattle and Hum by U2. Most people had found them out for the over-earnest poseurs they were already, but this just confirmed it. However, they managed to pull it back a few years later as i think they too realised how they looked.
Sticking in the mid-eighties, i also suggest Don’t You Forget About Me by Simple Minds (which i quite like actually), but it marked the end of their cool/quirky years (although Sparkle in the Rain paved the way) and the beginning of the bombastic (but highly successful) era.
I was even dragged along to see the Rattle and Hum film by a friend who was an obsessive fan, and it certainly looked like the moment when the megalomania had taken over completely (All Along the Watchtower – what were they thinking?). But then they somehow managed to get irony, of a sort, make a significant change in direction, and fend off decadence and irrelevance for a bit longer.
I thought Simple Minds’ comeback album, Street Fighting Years, one of their best. Jim Kerr didn’t magically acquire a lead singer’s voice, but they seemed to stop trying to impress and just made music… and, as it happens, were largely ignored for it.
Couldn’t you cite Live Aid as the JTS moment for both. A gateway drug for stadium rock & hanging out with dinosaur acts?
Still like Achtung Baby but it was a slow turgid decline after that. Simple Minds became a whole other band. The only thing they kept from the old days were the dodgy lyrics.
Good topic!
I’ve spent enough time trying to defend late-period REM, so will leave those rich pickings for someone else.
Dylan makes an interesting case. His latest albums have been brilliant, but his records between about 1975 and 1995 (with the partial exception of Oh Mercy) are pale shadows of his greatness. “Brownsville Girl” is a shining exception:
http://gozie.com/video/U1HSX6R8O69K/bob-dylan-brownsville-girl
I love Infidels, and would claim that it’s at least 60% great, but otherwise you’re absolutely right. The one thing to be said for Empire Burlesque is that you can play the game of spotting quotes from Humphrey Bogart movies…
Plus he has three Heartbreakers in the band.
I thought Infidels quite a good album too.
I don’t know the album Gotta Serve Somebody, but of all the challenges he has served up this song’s is the hardest to dodge: Why are you here, or do you think it’s all about you?
Getting boring now
I’m going to have another go, because I don’t think anybody else here will be trying to argue the greatness of post-2000 Deacon Blue. But I LOVE this song:
Deacon Blue – A is for Astronaut
I’m not so taken with that one (sorry!), but as I’m sure I’ve said before, I love “Your Swaying Arms”.
But… “Your Swaying Arms” is from Deacon Blue’s best album! No sharks jumped. And I rather liked the next one too, when they hooked up with Paul Oakenfold and Steve Osborne about three years after that would have been a cool thing to do, though I may be in a fairly small minority here.
Its interesting too to look at those moments in retrospect though as time has been kind to some of them. Being a bit of an indie/alternative kid in the eighties, you’ve no idea how divisive it was when the Cult went all hard-rock pastiche with Electric. People actively hated the change of direction and were truly angry – it was really considered their ‘jumping the shark’ moment. I didn’t mind it (although it took a bit of time to get used to), however, time has been kind to it and its arguable that it is they’re most influential record. Not many ‘indie’ bands had crossed-over into rock and may kids my age hadn’t been tutored in the merits of 70s hard rock. It ended up opening a lot of peoples’ eyes and reinvigorating many tired old acts.
I’m sure there’s many other instances of this where after a bit of time, people have had some time to get used to change and embrace it.
oh, I do recall the first time I played Electric by the Cult and thought I’d put on one of my brother’s Cream albums by mistake, where had the band who made Dreamtime gone?! I prefer it to the plastic American rock of Sonic Temple though.
Whilst we’re on the Cult I have to say their new one ‘Choice of Weapon’ has some fabulous tracks on it too, a harking back to good old days IMO
I fully agree Beth, it was a shock to the system that the band that had been Death Cult and then gone on and broken into the mainstream with Dreamtime and Love had now gone heavy metal (ish). However, i must have listened to Electric almost every day for a year after that. Apparently, it made Iggy love guitars again and release the underrated Instinct after the corporate sounding Blah, Blah, Blah.
I didn’t know Iggy had even heard of the Cult! I still like Electric, but Dreamtime will always be my fave (although Ian’s hair reached it’s best circa Sun King).
My tipping point is going to be controversial in my choice and it’s a personal thing, but here goes. The Cure, everyone loves Disintegration and agrees it’s their pinnacle, I never liked it much and was disappointed by it at the time, I don’t think anyone who’s heard albums before that would say they did anything better after it, except the perfect pop of Friday I’m In Love. Feel free to argue with me!
I tend to think “Kiss Me Kiss Me Kiss Me” was their pinnacle (although I love Disintegration too). Never much cared for “Friday I’m In Love” (a bit trite, I thought). Much preferred the first single from Wish:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9xXCK28wDU
Oh god, sorry – do un-embed that vid! My bad…
yay for Kiss Me, it’s a varied album, but no worse for it I think, kind of like a compilation of all the things the Cure do well and contains some of my very favourite tracks (also Hot ,Hot ,Hot and How Beautiful You Are, but I’ll ignore them). I thought I was alone in my estimation of it, thank you guys!
Well I’m with Bish here my Kiss Me was my pinnacle but you could take a random selection of future tunes and make a bloody brilliant Cure album – in 2004 I was in Germany – kind of splitting up with a fairly new Ms. who was in England – it was join in setting up a record label or regret not jumping in at the deep end.
I have to learn things by reading – not copying … so German was proving impossible (for a dyslexic) me to cope with and my emotions at the time were shot to – well they were messy.
The Cure album with Alt.end and Us or them on it was released and a lot of pent up anger was perfectly summed up by his Bobness.
agree with you Beth about Disintegration – made them big in the US – I like more tracks now than when it was released – but at the time I listened to the mixed up album more causing heartache to the dark cure fans.
by the by – the people who helped run the record label had a sideshow of doing Cure covers – they didn’t take it seriously, thinking new music was more important – at least two of them couldn’t play instruments before their first gig – the singer Marcus was brilliant held it all together. Much Fun.
I haven’t really listened much to those tracks, SaneShane, I’ll give them another go. It took seeing the Cure live a few years ago for me to fully appreciate Disintegration, but I’ll never love it.
You’ve done some very exciting things!
Let us dissect the cure:
1st album with some masterful original tunes, but a bit hit & miss as they found their way.
2nd a complete & classic guitar album that holds the same mood throughout. A little too bleak for the Dire Staits fans who jumped on with someone else’s train.
3rd dials up the electronics a bit & some of the tracks are not as strong as others. Still very fine.
4 let there be goth. One of the gloomiest albums ever. Patchiness continues.
5 let there be pop. Overcompensation from the last one? It works. The mainstream beckons.
Hereafter, it’s not the Cure the band anymore. Ego kicks in, & It’s Fat Bob fronting an interchangeable group of session musicians, lucky dipping from the story so far (as side projects allow). There is no cure; it’s Mr Smith & his band. Shark jumped.
gosh I hadn’t listened to High for ages! I had Wish on cassette and it got lost. Simon looks good in the video and I love the line “kitten as a cat”, I can see the appeal.
Several possibilities for me. Being an awkward sort of a chap if I’m told something by one of my favourites is really terrible then I want to hear it.
Lou Reed can probably supply a whole slew of sub-par albums to pick from but I’ll go with the Beach Boys.
I think it fair to say that there was a gradual decline in overall quality in their releases after 1966 and by the time Carl and the Passions came out in 1972 they were pretty much at the bottom ( or so I thought. Amazingly they did manage to “top” this album with some that had no redeeming qualities at all).
There were a couple of O.K tracks, a few sort of O.K and a good splodge of “blah” on this album
There was also Marcella
http://youtu.be/0YwGHsaPeO8
Almost a last hurrah of classic Beach Boys sound.
( not sure how to do link think, hope that works !).
Never heard this before – it is indeed quintessentially Beach Boys. Lovely.
The YouTube video is preceded by an advert for the new Linkin Park single. I’d got about 30 seconds in, thinking “this doesn’t sound like the Beach Boys at all,” before realising.
No, it didn’t !
Sorry.
Fixed. Now wondering whether I should do the same for the others…
*I said almost every artist, TFD
Ah, thanks, Abahachi. Saved me the trouble…
Didn’t set out to, but my choice may out-controversy bethnoir‘s
Recently regrouped – yet again, and yet again to mixed reviews, and still bickering, The Stone Roses’ trouble is they’ve never had a clue what they created or why it works. Sorry, worked.
I Wanna Be Adored is a bit flat. The lyrics (sorry Ian) are crap. the bass needs this, the drums need that, the guitar is… you get the picture. And yet in spite of themselves they got as close to a perfect rock song as you could without killing yourself.
Apologies aba and anyone else with a youtube-challenged computer, but they’re cheap these days so:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4D2qcbu26gs
I guess we can all see where I made my typing error. I shall now go check my bedroom in case any of you visit and see my smalls. Which aren’t, but that’s another story.
Ha! It turns out that I have the power, metaphorically speaking, to sneak into your bedroom and tidy it up for you. Or the reverse.
sorry Aba – I didn’t get time to do a post about the video embedding thing – real life gets in the way sometimes – you seem to have got most people on side though.
the youtube-challenged countryside and broadband travelling through rusted fairy dust is the problem – with too many videos for me – my computer can launch spacecraft – if only they’d connect it to a cable with wires in.
Am I the only person who actually liked Stone Roses Second Coming when it came out and still likes it now? It could have been the tequila…
Nope, I liked it. “Love Spreads” in particular.
I adore Ten Storey Love Song.
I think it suffered from people’s high expectations, I didn’t really adore the Stone Roses, quite liked them, but didn’t think they were as wonderful as people say they are in retrospect, so I think the album didn’t disappoint me.
I loved it too…….being just that few years younger, it was more familiar to me than their debut.
I liked it when it came out but i have to confess i was hoping for more of the pretty guitar melodies of many of their earlier efforts. I actually listened to it last week for the first time in a long time though and thought it was absolutely brilliant. Great songs, really good production and interesting ideas such as the long intro and the random “Track 90″.
My favourites were the opening two – “Breaking into Heaven” and “Driving South”, and the outstanding “Begging You”.
I’ve just remebered that scene in Shaun of the Dead when they contemplate which records to throw at the zombies (including the Second Coming):
[Looking through Shaun's LP collection for suitable records to throw at two approaching zombies]
Ed: Purple Rain.
Shaun: No.
Ed: Sign o’ the Times.
Shaun: Definitely not.
Ed: The Batman soundtrack?
Shaun: Throw it.
[Ed does so; it misses]
…
Ed: Dire Straits.
Shaun: Throw it.
[Ed throws it – clipping Mary in the side of the head]
Ed: Stone Roses?
Shaun: No.
Ed: Second Coming?
Shaun: I like it.
Ed: Ah! Sade.
Shaun: That’s Liz’s.
Ed: Yeah, but she did dump you. [Throws it]
——————————————————————————–
Ten Story Love Song would fit the premise precisely. Great song.
For many a year i have regarded I Wanna Be Adored as one of my favourtie songs, if not my favourite so refute your suggestion that it is a bit flat. The lyrics (sorry Ian) are crap. the bass needs this, the drums need that, the guitar is…
But it is a close to a perfect rock song so i’ll let you off!
I’m going to suggest “Precious” by Depeche Mode. Depeche Mode really reached the peak of the powers in the late 80′s / early 90′s after ditching the poppy stuff of the early career and forming the darker, stadium filling sound which they are now most famous for. They peaked with “Music for the Masses” and the follow up, “Violator”. After that “Songs of Faith of Devotion” was decent but not quite as good and follow ups after dipped. I still find some enjoyment in all of their albums but “Precious” off the “Playing the Angel” album (circa 2005-ish) was a magnificent return to form and i think as good as anything they have ever done. Also one of my favourite videos so worth watching for that alone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts2DXY0zfLs
Precious is a great song isn’t it? I don’t think I’d seen the video before, I must say Music for the Masses is still my favourite by them, but I have a soft spot for earlier ones than that too.
Yes, i think Music for the Masses is my fav too.
STP’s ‘Atlanta’. It’s the closing track of their No. 4 album – rush released, because the singer had just been sentenced to a term in jail for drug offences. Most people hate the Pilots anyway, but this album is a sprawling messy collection of demos and filler. Not this song – it’s a gently lilting tune, which slowly turns into the most haunting lullaby – and probably the best song they ever wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8iFcLpz1E8
Well, wyngate and Fuel will probably disagree, but for me, “Ocean Rain” was Echo and The Bunnymen’s zenith. Having bought the ‘grey album’ follow-up as a skint teenager, I made myself love it, but beyond a handful of songs (“The Game”, “Lips Like Sugar”, “All My Life”), it’s not really much cop. But then they returned with “Nothing Lasts Forever” and even made Liam Gallagher listenable…
And then guess what? They jumped the shark again. Nothing much since has been all that (Ian McCulloch’s recently released solo album on Pledge Music is DIRE). But one song has always shone out for me. It may sound disconcertingly like Whitney Houston’s “One Moment In Time” at points, but this is majestic. Mac always could croon…
Rust
I think I would also disagree Bish, but I do know what you mean. It is a slick album and while those before it were edgy and fresh, I am happy to listen to it.
Yeah, it is pretty slick. But it includes such oddities as “The Yo-Yo Man” and “Thorn of Crowns”, which kind of offsets the smoothness for me. Reassuringly well played and produced without being bland, imho. And Mac’s vocal on the title track is a thing of wonder (as is that solo in “My Kingdom”). I genuinely have never tired of listening to it (although I do occasionally skip the opening couple of tracks and start with “Crystal Days”).
Wrong. Ocean Rain was almost a shark jump. The real shark jump was the attempted Bunnymen without Mac. Luckily Pete & Will got it back together and we got Electrafixion & What Are You Going To Do With Your Life – both classics.
Ah, you see I tend to think that WAYGTDWYL (almost as cumbersome a title as an acronym) is pretty weak, other than Rust. I feel like as the Bunnymen got proficient at songwriting, they lost their spark of genius. All those “Get In The Car” Fun Loving Criminals tracks have always struck me as a bit (ironically!) pedestrian. Ah well, horses for courses. Wonder if I can squeeze in any other forms of transport…
Don’t get a Fun Lovin’ Criminals connection at all – unless it’s an acronym for boring. Would agree it’s more of a Mac solo than propper Bunnymen, as Will doesn’t have much to do. The 3 albums after that haven’t been bad either, but 2 Bunnymen are never going to be as good as the original 4.
Weren’t the Fun Loving Criminals guest artists on Get In The Car (and possibly a couple of other tracks on the album)? I always thought it a little unlikely as you can’t hear any sign of them!
I didn’t buy “Flowers” or “The Fountain”, but did buy “Siberia”, which seemed to be hailed as a return to form. Never quite got why. Not bad but a little uninspired. Have you heard the new solo Mac album, Shoey? I think it’s really disappointing – and I’m a big fan of his first two solo records (particularly Candleland).
Nope, didn’t know there was one until you mentioned it. Will approach with caution.
This is probably the least bad song.
I first got into Bunnymen with Porcupine and was investigating the back catalogue at the same time I was buying the new stuff so it was a bit difficult to assess it all at first. To me Ocean Rain is about half a great album – it souds a bit too mainstream but as Bish says there is some Bunnymen oddness in there. It was a long wait (for the time) until the grey album and that had some ok songs such as Bombers Bay but overall was pretty band. However nothing they’ve done post reunion has grabbed me at all, not even Nothing Lasts Forever.
Like Bish I bought Siberia having read it was a return to their early 80s sound. Quite honestly whoever wrote that was talking bollocks. So I can’t even find a “they haven’t jumped the shark after all” moment.
Great topic Aba !
there’s a million I could choose from as I tend to go off of bands after they start having the arrogance to press more than 500 copies of a split 7″ but I’ll try to stick to Aba’s excellent guidelines.
Bad Brains were THE early 80s US hardcore band, super-tight and lightning fast punk rock delivered with intensity and passion until lead singer did indeed find religion and started making unfortunate pronouncements about homosexuality! The decline started around 1986 with I Against I, but that still had enough decent tunes to pull them through, but by the next album Quickness it was all over and it was difficult to believe it was the same band…..which it wasn’t really!
I think we might be able to blame them for Nu Metal too!
Quickness
Music video had a big hand in shark jumping some big careers. Robbo’s gory “Rock DJ” video managed to tear the flesh off of any career momentum he had going in the States.
But here’s some bigger “What were they thinking?!” falls from grace:
The non sequiter crotch grabbing, window smashing coda to Jacko’s otherwise uplifting “Black and White”
Garth Brooks eyeliner and mascara glam rock alter ego which he created for VH1.
Did Garth Brooks do that? Well I never!
I was just reading Aba’s post and his David Bowie example. For me Bowie was Ziggy Stardust was god. After that, he was just a guy with talent. I never was curious about what he did before that, for some odd reason.
Wot? No Hunky Dory?
by the way, Aba, a friend of mine sent me Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules by Black Sabbath where Ronnie James Dio sings, I thought they were quite good, but wouldn’t have recognised them as the band without the album sleeve, apparently to me, Ozzy’s voice is important to band identity. I only know very early Sabbath though, so that’s probably why.
I’m probably a philistine Beth, because I really like the RJD Sabbath For me it was the Born Again/Ian Gillan line-up that really sucked. I had the misfortune of seeing them at Dalymount Park in Dublin and I think that even they knew it was cack!
That seems to be in line with what Aba said in the introduction, I’m just a casual fan really, much more philistine than anyone that’s seen them live!
After the huge success of Born In The USA in 1985, Bruce Springsteen seemed to many folks (not me) to have lost his mojo, I think partly it was a case of being too famous, in general; and recognising that from then on he was doomed to play nothing but stadium gigs showcasing greatest hits… He dumped the E Street Band, married an actress, moved to Hollywood and put out three albums with session musicians which nobody liked (except me). People said he had lost touch with his NJ blue-collar roots and would be left writing songs about what it’s like to be really famous and have lots of money – which, to be fair, he did, a couple – and never be interesting again.
Except, on the Tunnel Of Love album, there’s Spare Parts; and then there are the title tracks on Human Touch and Lucky Town. All these are particular favourites of mine. But Bruce carried on trying out new themes and new directions (The Ghost Of Tom Joad, The Seeger Sessions); he reunited with the band, he remarried and moved back to New Jersey; but only gradually has he been able to work his way back, and with his new album and current tour will be managing to piss off all the American rightwingers very successfully. Everyone else, however, now loves him again. Well, nearly everyone.
*whispers* I don’t, sorry!
That’s why I linked to the Grauniad Bruce argument thread!
I really like Tunnel Of Love and it is probably the album of Bruce’s that got me seriously interested. The much vaunted quality control has been slipping a bit of late – three or four good songs per album are still worth a listen and he spits some bile on the current one.
Yes, I didn’t like either Magic or Workin’ On A Dream; haven’t really bothered to listen to much of the new one. He seems to be doing well with it though.
There are a handful of what could be described as protest songs on the new one which I think work really well. I was at the Sunderland gig last week and he fairly tore into those but then he insists on leading off every album with a very insipid anthemic rocker which would appear to be an attempt at retaining as many casual listeners as possible.
I don’t know why he bothers with casual listeners, frankly.
I much preferred Tunnel of Love to Born in the USA – Brilliant Disguise is one of my favourite Bruce songs – but wasn’t so keen on either of the next two and then just stopped listening to any new records. But then my favourite Bruce album overall is Nebraska, so I don’t think I’m very typical…
Do you like The Ghost Of Tom Joad?
Tunnel of Love is the only Boss album I own. Tougher Than The Rest and Brilliant Disguise are lovely – though I kind of prefer EBTG’s version of the former. I do like a woman singing a ‘man’s song’.
Both Magic and The Rising are brilliant albums and Wrecking Ball is a very good one. Personally, I lost touch with him from Born in the USA which is his worst album and, coincidentally, his most successful, until he released The Rising, basically through the eighties and nineties really. The thing with Springsteen, unlike so many bands, is that its the live performances that have always defined him and given the wealth of material he has to call on he rarely fails to deliver. In a way the recorded material takes second place.
Kraftwerk’s Electric Cafe didn’t do it for me, the Tour De France single was the last thing they did that I really liked. I’m also not sure what to make of a band still touring with one original member.
Was that before or after The Mix – quixotic attempt at re-recording all the classic songs, that was the first time I really ‘got’ Kraftwerk and then worked back to the originals. I seem to recall that lots of other people hated it.
The Mix was early 90s Aba. There is a purity to the original stuff and I must say I don’t like them messing with it. I saw them in Glasgow some years ago and didn’t really enjoy the getting down with the kids arrangements.
See them more as an evolving along with the technology with each album. Computer World sounds nothing like their 1st album, but it’s just a short step from there to The Mix & Electric Cafe.
oh – let’s deconstruct my favourite band in bite sized chunks.
Come On Pilgrim (1987) = no fluff, no guff, alternative indie (mini) album – this was the sound of MY tunes… and the record I return to most.
Surfer Rosa (1988) = almost genius (for me) except the studio chat – get’s on my wick – dumb bits and great bits – ace still.
Doolittle (1989) = more consistant – less fun – but still strange pop perfection .
Bossanova (1990) = bored now.
Trompe le Monde (1991) = ‘fool the world’ umm no you haven’t.
except:
U-Mass
sweary rant of (dis)pleasure – why I loved them in the first place.
Pixies
who on earth did you think I was talking about?
Never a shark jump though, just a slight decline. Still think Bossanova is great. Trompe is more of a rushed-out Frank solo album.
I thought (at the time) Trompe was a jump the shark moment – it felt – well it felt normal – and I think that’s the feeling I have with Frank solo – he’s a weird singer with a bar band – I’m going on memory.
…. and my memory was shot before the 90′s got boring – then the bedwetting decade – I just fished the album out. It’s much more interesting musically than I remember.
But I have a short attention span – it wasn’t new to me any more – a 4 years career with nearly 5 albums (2 years too many and 2 albums too much) hee hee. I’m going to re-listen.
I always loved “Little Eiffel” off Trompe.
Starting to suspect that one of the relevant factors is when we first encountered a band – both how old we were, and what stage they were at. There must be a big difference between seeing a band develop from the beginning to encountering them in the middle and working back – the difference, for my generation, between dealing with the Stone Roses or Suede or Massive Attack, and coming to terms with Dylan. Equally there’s a difference between the feeling when you’re young that a band has let you down by becoming crap, and the feeling later that every band, however good they seem, is going to become crap sooner or later. Actually Sakura-Chan got this at the very beginning: “maybe I grew up a little…”.
Example 1: for me, in the mid 1980s, David Bowie meant Let’s Dance and China Girl; the idea that he was then forming a group called Tin Machine was simply information, without any positive or negative connotations. It was only later, when I’d discovered his back catalogue, that I could make sense of the reactions at the time – and thus can make the claim that, however mediocre the records, Baby Universal was actually rather good, albeit a bit of a deliberate pastiche of 70s Bowie.
Example 2: Ultravox were the first group I absolutely idolised, with the brilliant new wave electro-pop of Vienna, the abstraction and alienation of Rage in Eden and the lush melodies of Quartet. And then the next album, Lament, was even more poppy, even more Scottish in the wrong sort of way, and really rather blah. I tried so hard to like it, but there’s really only one half-decent track on there: Lament itself. I felt so betrayed…
I even tried to like the U-Vox album…
Now that’s devotion. I started listening to John Foxx-era stuff instead.
I actually loved Dancing With Tears in my Eyes when it came out (but then I was about 12). Thinking about it now, I suppose the man on the wireless crying “it’s over, it’s over” again is Roy Orbison, isn’t it? Didn’t even stop to think it might be referring to a real person… Der!
Did anyone mention Genesis yet? What happened? It wasn’t just that Peter Gabriel left, because he ended up pretty mainstream too. Wind And Wuthering was the last good album for me. When Steve Hackett went bye bye, I did too. I can’t think of one redeeming track on anything afterwards, but there must be. Anyone?
I secretly love a couple of Phil Collins-singer era Genesis songs, namely “That’s All” and “Follow You Follow Me”. I hate everything off Invisible Touch, which seemed to be ubiquitous when I was about 15.
I remember getting dissed months ago because I love The Lamb Lies Down On Broadway – which I admit as a concept album was rubbish, but did have some excellent songs on. Someone did an update on The Carpet Crawlers in 97. I love that – don’t know if that was them or someone else at the mixing deck.
I’m with you, bish. I’d go so far as to say I’d rather be strapped to a chair and forced to listen to “Billy Don’t Be A Hero” 50 times than anything off of Invisible Touch even once.
I like a lot of early-Phil era Genesis too and Mama is downright Oedipal – Phil cackling and grunting like a madman – one of the most disturbing songs with a genuine pop chart pedigree.
I’d also agree with you on the entire Invisible Touch album except that the full 9-minute version of Tonight Tonight Tonight still makes for good late night driving music: There’s a stretch of Interstate 20 westbound where the city lights and television towers of Birmingham (still some 25-30 miles in the distance) suddenly come into view after you crest a ridge. One night it just synced up perfectly with the end of the long instrumental break. Never forgot that.
There are a couple of songs on And Then There Were Three (about the first “proper” album I ever went into a shop and did the physical purchase with my own money, I reckon) that can still stand tall with the band’s best, but yes, Genesis’ jump-the-shark career-point was reconvening to record Duke, drum machines an’all. After that, I have a big soft spot for the full-length version of Mama, but that’s it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iiu-hAIHMDQ
This is going to be another age thing; I first encountered them with the Genesis album, and loved Mama and Home by the Sea; working backwards from there, I can see why a fan of the Gabriel era, or even early Collins, might think it was all a bit rubbish and certainly completely different. Agree with bishbosh that Invisible Touch was ghastly.
Did you ever hear Mad Man Moon from Trick Of The Tail, which I offer as a comparison?
Fingers crossed my linky thing works
I’m OK with Genesis up to and including Wind & Wuthering, which therefore includes the first two post-Gabriel albums. So I suppose you could argue that it was Steve Hackett leaving rather than Gabriel that killed them for me. Strange that I’ve never really noticed that before…
No contest about the first one that came to my mind …
The ace, and huge Something To Give In Return at the time put a sticking plaster over the castration that left us with BPM.
Obviously the jump over the shark wasn’t high enough to avoid the pesky piscine biting the balls off’f Big Point Mississippi!!!!!
* Someone explain it to the relative newbie ‘Spillers *
Tee hee….
http://readersrecommend.blogspot.co.uk/2008/08/big-point-mississippi.html
A real blast from the past – how did this get only seven comments at the time? I guess that says something about your chances of a successful comeback tour.
I think the majority of the banter was in one or two earlier posts – this was more a sort of coda; a winding up wind-up of a post if you will…
The funny thing about this is that if you Google “Big Point Mississippi” (Big Point is, of course, a genuine place in Mississippi) this article is the fourth hit that comes up!
It pains me to say it but it might be this
Dexys – It’s OK Johanna
Was obviously as you know a huge fan up to and including Don’t Stand Me Down. Too-Rye-Ay remains my favourite, although seemingly this is not a fashionable choice to see the least.
Then they released Because Of You which I didn’t even buy, and found myself cringing whenever I heard it. Some people including Kev like it – each to their own.
I wasn’t impressed by Kev’s solo album The Wanderer album at all. I gave My Beauty a go after picking it up cheap somewhere but it wasn’t for me.The new Dexys tracks released in 2003 alsop doisappointed me. Manhood was interesting lyrically, but I found it too bland musically.
Then I heard It’s OK Johanna which if nothing else was intriguing. The new album has finally arrived but so far I’m not convinced by what I’ve heard despite the ecstatic reception not least from The Guardian. Something’s missing for me, I can’t put into words what that is. I’m thinking of getting it to give it a fair listen instead of relying on youtube, but I haven’t got round to it yet…..
I’ve already wittered on elsewhere (the Graun) about my theory as to why the new album has been so well received: a combination of nostalgia, wishful thinking and critics’ fear of “doing a Don’t Stand Me Down” and slagging off something in haste that subsequently comes to be viewed as a masterpiece. I reckon the opening track and the last two tracks are keepers. The rest of the album doesn’t do it for me.
I think you might be onto something with your theory about critics not wanting to eat humble pie. I am planning to investigate further, I’m just psyching myself up!
It seems that Kevin Rowland is happy with it (just about) and I certainly don’t begrudge him that or the current acclaim, but it just may not be for me.
Bowie’s been mentioned already. The only oasis in the desert for me is “I’m afraid of Americans”. I’m sure he’s got at least one more reinvention left in him & am hopeful this isn’t his swan song. Here he is with
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljn2mJBN0BI&feature=youtube_gdata_player
Sonic Youth
(the Guardian method works – am sure there must be an easier way to disable the player code, though)
Testing 3:
How To Post A Link In Comments
Ok, copy the “title” link in the 1st reply above into your comment. Paste your URL over “URL”
The second link was an attempt to fool WP into revealing the code – didn’t work.
Follow the third link for more detailed instructions.
Probably not any easier than borrowing the Guardian toolbox, but the coding is a little more elegant.
Oh, forgot and type the actual title for your link over “title”. The link to the longer instructions may be a little clearer.
Sorry for all the spam posts – I got absorbed with trying to make it work (WP is evil!). There was a small error in my last post, so here it is properly – of course the instructions on Shoegazer’s third link were perfectly good too.
Posting a link in WP comments
<a href="Your_Link">Your_Text</a>- replace Your_Link with the URL (keeping the enclosing quotes ” “)
- replace Your_Text with whatever text you want, e.g. song title, artist …
If you want Your_Title to be bold use
<a href="Your_Link"><b>Your_Text</b></a>You can merge your link within your paragraph by placing it inline or if you want to ensure it is placed on a separate line enclose the whole thing in
<p>...</p>Some people will already be familiar with this, so apologies to them.
I’ve deleted a few of the messages that were just testing, in case you’re wondering where they’ve gone, but have left in all the ones that offered some sort of useful comment. I think I’m enjoying the power to reshape the conversation and make us all look so much more articulate and focused a bit too much…
Duh, of course. I hadn’t managed to clarify my thoughts that much, but ’tis obvious now you’ve said it.
M’lud, the Prosecution would like to submit into evidence:
Whitesnake.
* pauses for Opposing Counsel to object … silence … looks at Defence table, but Chinhealer QC seems to be out to lunch *
Coverdale managed a three-thousand mile jump over the shark-infested Atlantic to make his musical bed in the US.
Song examples shurely not nesheshary, eh Prof?
Yes, but the point is not to identify the shark-jumping moment, it’s to identify the songs thereafter that were still good despite the big hair, dreadful dress sense, scantily-clad-females-in-waterfalls videos and over-polished production. I thought Still of the Night was okay, for example.
Objection your honour! In this case suggesting such an identification could only be mischievous.
@llamalpaca – Nice one Centurion!
But I will answer: underneath the odious production, aside from Steve Vai’s ridiculous histrionics, hiding my wince at some of the lyrical cliches, and ignoring the fact it’s a blatant Kashmir rip-off, Judgement Day was a good song.
I don’t think I’ve ever had the “pleasure” of listening to Fool For Your Loving ’89, but I would imagine that it would’ve come in handy as a “disincentive” in Guantanamo Bay.
The other comment I wanted to make was a bemused grump at how many albums I’ve re-listened to in the last couple of days that I KNOW I think are crap, trying to find pearls amongst the swine!
So far, Hothouse Flowers’ Into Your Heart has the “award” for lowest-of-the-low.
Since no else seems to have picked up the REM so carelessly dropped by barbryn, allow me to recommend the following:
REM, Leaving New York
I suppose this all depends on when we date the decline; was the massive disappointment of Monster following the sublime achievement of Automatic for the People that moment – in which case I can rave about my love for E-Bow the Letter..?
OK, I’ll bite…
Monster was indeed a massive disappointment – their first uneven record after 8 albums of sustained brilliance. But it’s still got a good half-dozen great songs. Imagine how excited you’d be if some new band had released it as their debut album…
Similarly, New Adventures is (perhaps deliberately) not perfect, but “E-Bow the Letter” is only one of many highlights.
Some would identify the shark moment as Bill Berry’s departure, but I love Up, and I think Reveal is lovely too.
Around the Sun, however, is a bit of a turkey – ToffeeBoy has of course picked the outstanding track. The last two albums are better, but somehow the magic has gone.
I’m glad they quit when they did, but I’m still grateful for the late gems.
I really like “What’s The Frequency, Kenneth?”, and “Strange Currencies” is one of my top five R.E.M. songs. I think “Monster” may be underrated…
Rave away Aba. E-Bow is indeed a fine song. I’m not sure when my love for REM started to fade. I know that New Adventures in Hi-Fi was the last REM album that I bought with any real expectations of magnificence but I carried on until the (bitter?) end and was rewarded with the odd gem here and there. I don’t know how many times I listened to Around The Sun before accepting that Leaving New York really was the only track worth listening to but I know that it stands up well against any of REM’s greatest moments.
That should, of course, have read ‘…the REM baton so carelessly dropped by barbryn…’ I have given my copy editor notice…
OK – how do I do the link rather than embed thingy???
See the advice from Shoey and Helen above. Lots of angled brackets…
Thanks – if I’d known it was that easy, I wouldn’t have asked!
I just write the whole thing in a Guardian comment box, taking advantage of their bold/italics and linky thingy and then cut and paste the whole thing to here…….simple as that! No angle brackety things needed!