Some weeks ago on the main blog there was a discussion about how confusing the nominating and donding process can be for newcomers to RR. We discussed some of the techniques used and I volunteered to put together something in draft for further review here and to see if Marconius might have room for a finished document in The Marconium. (He says good idea!)
Here is my draft for your review and comments. (I am not much of a technical writer so feel free to make appropriate suggestions for format as well as content.)
Please can you give your opinions and anything you think needs to be added in the comments below, even to indicate that you’re okay with the draft, so I get some feedback. I’ll leave this out there until Sunday 27th at noon to give everyone a chance to comment before I prepare a final document to give to Marconius.
If there are a lot of amendments I’ll post it back here for a quick look-over.
Thanks
SR
Nominating and Donding Guide
Other than following The Guardian format for posting, and their Community Guidelines, there are no right or wrong ways, no rules or conventions for nominating or donding songs/music on Readers Recommend.
Nominating
- Log in and type your nomination in the comment box – Song Title and Artist/Band name and
if possible, your justification of why you think the song fits the rubric for the week’s topic.
To link the song to a clip (e.g. YouTube) do the following*:
1 Highlight the text you want to link. If you wish to bold it, select the B [bold] tab, then
2 Go to the grey LINK box in the comment you are working on and click on it, then
3 Open another browser tab and search and find the clip you want to use, check that it is suitable, then
4 Copy the http address (e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlAvh1GpVKw) and then
5 Go back to the RR tab and click on the L[link] tab again and Paste the copied text into the box that pops up then
6 Hit OK
* If you have a manky old computer, don’t worry. You can paste in the url address or just name the song and artist/band.
- Add any more text you want
- Preview your post
- Post your comment
So, What Techniques Do RRers Use For Nominating?
“Whatever shows up in my head. If it’s a fertile topic, my head is flooded well into Friday morning from Thursday night. If I’m having a more difficult time, I’ll start to mentally or go through songs / albums by my favorite artists. If it gets even more difficult, I’ll look at online discographies to jog my memory. I do use google to check (and paste) my lyrics, sometimes a song isn’t about what I think it is. Or if I have a line in my head but can’t remember the song or who the artist is.” Rip This Joint
“I am too consumed by competitiveness… So I’m afraid I have been guilty in the past (less so now I’m less obsessed with the game, but it still happens) of searching my iTunes for relevant words. That said, the listings I’ve got have always been more satisfying when they’ve come a bit more hard-earned.” bishbosh
“I think searching your own iTunes is fine, because presumably it’ll bring up songs that you like (since you already have them)!…” Treefrogdemon
“Another nomming technique for ultra tight topics is to abstain! I had to abstain for the most part on bicycles, Wales (except for classical singers), and b-sides, to name just a few.” RipThisJoint
“I have a visceral loathing of the whole Midnight Feeding Frenzy [now 10pm Feeding Frenzy], dumping of long lists of vaguely-relevant song titles thing; if a nomination doesn’t consist of a 2,500-word essay referencing Nietzsche and Bourdieu then I’m not interested, even if it means that I miss out on A-listers because someone else has nominated the song while I’m still writing said essay. Equally, I hate themes where it’s possible simply to search for key terms in the title; I’d much rather rely on random inspiration, when a song or a lyric suddenly pops into my head, even if it’s after the deadline.” Abahachi
“The patented Ubu nominating technique is as follows:
- Suggest anything I feel like suggesting.
- Occasionally these have something vaguely to do with the topic. Mostly they don’t but are “good” tracks.
- Sometimes I make things up, I’m terrible like that.
- Songs concerning toilets WILL be nominated.
- Songs with ludicrous titles/subject matter/words etc will be nominated. The Guardian is sour faced enough as it is, a little technicolour weirdness ( or chocolate rainbow unicorn bunnies) is necessary to leaven the tide of grey gloom.Take nothing seriously but try not to upset too many people each week.
- Ignore the “list”. They have been terrible of late, more suited to a 50th anniversary wedding party or gathering of depressives ( is there a collective term ? A Misanthrope ?).
- Accept that the rest of the world is wrong. I find that helps.
- Pretend to like Yui to keep in Sakura’s good books ( only kidding….or am I ….?)
- Write rubbish.
- Don’t use spell check.
- Change group names or song names in “humorous” fashion.
- Above all, have fun ( by my standards which , I must admit, are set pretty low anyway).” Pairubu
Donding
You have three choices, and you can use any or all or any of these:
- Click the recommend against the post
- Respond to the nomination post(s) by letting the poster know that you’re donding the song
- Compile your own dond list(s)
For me it’s a scattergun thing depending on how much time I have – I like weeks where I’m engaged in a tedious manual task like painting as I can just work through the Spotify List or Dropbox and just run through tons of often great stuff – I like that as I’ve not got any preconceptions of what is coming up. Some weeks I’ll just click around on things that catch my interest and dond songs that I know I already love. Some weeks, like this week, it’s somewhere between the two…” BeltwayBandit
“Could you include the Recommending option [for donding]. I used to keep a running list, whittle it down after second listens, etc and post my donds of the week after the weekend. But it all got to be too pressurized, and weeks when I didn’t have time to listen to everything I felt guilty. So I switched to clicking recommend, and then I don’t have to risk hurting feelings explaining that I liked a song but thought it was off topic or that I simply hadn’t had a chance to listen thoroughly and on and on. I think whatever works for a person is THE right way to do it, and that should be stressed .. even if the right way for someone is not to dond or recommend or to simply do it as the mood strikes from one week to the next.” Tincanman
Excellent work !
Maybe where it says “4. Copy the http address”, it could say “highlight and ‘copy’ the http / link in the address bar (Ctrl-C works in Windows)” – or something that saves anyone from painstaking and error-strewn typing”. But maybe in this day and age, that’s unnecessary advice.
My only thing to add to the above – which are brilliant and reflect the freedom and diversity to do things our own way:
Don’t worry too much about whether a song is 100% genuinely “about” something, or if it only “mentions” it. You’ll only get cross when someone else nominates it. If in doubt, nominate !
Such great advise. Will change the how to do the thingy, thingy. I’ll also add in your remarks, too.
wait up until the new theme is released.
nominate a couple you’d be really pissed if someone else got first.
have a competition with shoey about the best mountain goats or the wolfgang press tracks for this week.
open Itunes folder RR 2012. create sub folder (insert new theme name)
put as many tunes you can think of in said folder.
songs you only have on record – download from e-music or other method.
cut down folder to about 100 – expelling zedded songs – songs you no longer like – too obvious songs – etc etc etc
put selection on ipod – place on car stereo for when out and about.
listen carefully or haphazardly to each track while working or driving.
killer tracks go to the head of the folder – delete shit.
tracks that are brilliant but not quite on topic get moved up to second section for in-depth listening and topic twisting purposes (use song meanings to see if lyrics can really be fitted in)
try and cut down to 13 tracks… (or boost up to 13 if topic is house numbers)
do some artwork to illustrate the topic.
make a ‘spill post to share those tracks with 4 other people.
write a few words with the least amount of spelling mistakes.
post list to RR – lists are frowned about on RR – I don’t like rules so I WILL post a list.
wait for two people to like one song after all that effort –
remember it’s not a popularity contest –
thank the god of orange monsters for the ability to be unique.
cry in your beer when the results are posted and (insert pet bands) perfect track is once again overlooked for a goose shagging hippie from 1967 – 71.
remember you have a great life and really like compiling mixtapes –
open another beer in celebration
(then try not to accidentally wind someone up on the blog when drunk).
hurrah.
Like
Tee hee. I meant to put something about your and shoey’s playlists. Then I forgot. I like this. You know it’s going in verbatim, don’tcha?
If I may gainsay: please, please can we have an end to veteran readers lecturing ‘newcomers’ on seconding/donding? I know for a lot of people, it’s a friendly custom: but really, it’s so patronising to tell new readers that they should say ‘dond’ – because, honestly, they shouldn’t. If they recommend a song, it’s because they like it: it doesn’t have to be done in any particular fashion. R & R is not a competition – the whole thread is only ever what readers make of it.
The only personal guideline I go by is, I try to explain why I like the song. The first RR comment I posted was back in December 2006 (old profile on University email address). Really, in six years, I don’t think there is any other approach I would take. Lists are dull for other people to read – but not everybody is articulate, or able to explain why they like songs; and not everyone does have an encyclopedic knowledge of bands. I don’t think it’s fair to push people for explanations.
So, if Readers are going to compile a guideline for newcomers – please can you keep it light-hearted, and avoid making it seem restrictive? The more new readers, the better – the more stentorian the guidelines, the more newbies will be alienated.
Hi Rich
Did it come across as hectoring/lecturing? That is the VERY LAST thing it was intended to do – in fact it is meant to be very lighthearted and to illustrate, mostly through anecdotes, RRers different styles, and how they adapt them depending on the mood and the topic. The whole thing came about because of comments that new RRers rather think that there ARE some unwritten rules that they ought to be observing and are rather relieved to find out that there aren’t any – but would like some ideas on how other people’s techniques have evolved. Obviously we need to look a little closer to make sure that this doesn’t look like a rule book. Thanks for your input. Much appreciated.
PS I’ll quote you if I may? It’s important that opinions are reflected.
Just wanted to emphasise, after Rich’s comment, and Nilpferd’s on RR, that this is a DRAFT document, that it can be scrapped if it is felt that something like this is too prescriptive.
The intent was to provide something for the benefit of new RRers who are wondering what people are doing, whether there are unwritten rules that they may unwittingly be breaking, etc. The point of this, as was discussed on the blog, was not to constrain them!
At the heart of the RR game are Four Noble Truths:
1. All participation is suffering;
2. Desire for success is suffering;
3. Nirvana is attained through the extinction of hope;
4. Following the Eightfold Path will extinguish suffering. Unfortunately, no-one remembers what the Eightfold Path is or what songs they recorded.
(With apologies to the Buddha.)
But the Dead have 4 songs on the A-Z! What are you complaining about?
I wasn’t complaining, tfd, just trying to provide a cod-philosophical approach for newbies to use.
There may be 4 Dead listings but only one of them is mine, and that’s over 5 years of trying! For evidence to back up my assertion that it’s all pretty much in the lap of the non-existent gods, just consider why Serge Gainsbourg has been listed no less than 13 times…. (and none of those is the one with Jane Birkin, the only record of his I know).
There are only two rules.
Don’t nominate prog.
Don’t be me.
An interesting discussion and I’m looking forward to seeing the finished product! Don’t forget to include something about zedded songs and how to check to see if a song is zedded. As I mentioned in a comment for the results page for riffs, I think the same song but by a different artist is now acceptable.
My own approach to RR – I’m usually at work during the MFF since I live in Western Canada, so if I have time, I’ll pop in to see what the topic is and drop a few suggestions off the top of my head. On my way home from work, I’ll pop CDs into the player on the drive home, cycling through them listening for songs that fit the rubric. Then I’ll nom them when I get home and finish up the Marconium if it needs fixing. Then I’ll go through my iTunes listings for songs that may fit and if I’m really inspired, physically go through my CDs and vinyl albums.
I find that reading through the blog often twigs ideas. Someone else’s mention of a song or lyric suggests a new one. I find that a lot of fun.
If I have time, I’ll make a dond list as well. Sometimes the topics are so tough that I dond more songs than I nominate, which may be the case this week. And some weeks the weather is too nice or I am too busy with other things to participate much. (Like last week because I probably could have nominated dozens of riff songs but was too busy with other things.)
I very much enjoy the discussions and debates that sometimes occur though I don’t very often participate in them myself.
RR is a fun pastime. But I try not to make it an obsession.
1. Drink beer
2. Start vomiting suggestions & compose accompanying thought fart, or perhaps a few supporting line of lyrics – the artist’s own words are often the best justi.
3. Drink more beer
4. Read brief (optional)
5. Formatting? Linking? HAHAHAHA
6. Go to sleep
….
7. Read through the thread & listen to any intriguing suggestions (as time permits).
8. Go to the tune vaults & trawl for any hidden gems that may fit & perhaps nom a few more.
9. Put a ‘Spill playlist together for 3 people to listen to.
10. Mixed feelings on donds, which I won’t go into here. The “thank you for my donds” posts really get on my tits more than they should.
11. What you get out of RR is likely to be in proportion to the amount of listening you are able to do
12. Erm …that’s it.
More good points.
So where’s the picture, then, eh? There’s rules on the ‘Spill as well you know.
Oops – will this do instead? Ha ha ha!
youtube=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLrphMDcFeE]
Of course, I could try to do it correctly!
(More ha ha ha’s!)
Ooh. How do I approach RR? It varies. I can’t RR at work anymore (that was how I started, waaaay back in 2005 or so, purely with the songs-that-popped-into-my-head). Of course, for a rather long while, I couldn’t RR at work because I had no job. Now I have a different job, but Internet access is restricted there. So Sheddi and I just stay up later than we should do on Thursday evenings. Yeah, we sometimes do keyword searches on our collective mp3s, but let’s face it – the most satisfying noms (zedded or otherwise) are the ones you think of before you resort to the searching…
I usually leave any Iron Maiden / Wierd Al search hits for Sheddi to nominate (or I’ll nominate on his behalf). They’re his. ‘Cos he bought the CDs and ‘cos I don’t really get either act.
I like to justify, but there’s not much time between topic announcement and bedtime on a Thursday, so I sometimes just knock ‘em out and come back (hopefully) to the ones I believe in later. But, some weekends, we’re just too busy. And others… well, sometimes I run out of inspiration. But it’s nice to have a topic pootling along in the background, just in case insipration or serendipity strike.
I really like the guide (and Chris zen of nominating ! ! !)
I started to read and guardian website to improve my English (and I have learnt lots of new words and expressions from Mr P ! ! !) But now it is really important to me.
I think a nice welcoming guide will make people feel at home and part of our community. I think I googled “dond” when I first started reading as it is very strange to see a post that says some thing like:
“Mr P – S.H.E DOND ! ! ! ”
This is how I nominate . . .
Of course, I only nominate Japanese and Asian music and I try to nominate Asian women if I can, because I want to show that Asian women are not stereotype submissive that often people in the west think they are, but are really creative and active making their own music.
So I think of a song that fits the task for the week.
I try and find a video for every song as most people will not know them
Then I write a little about the artist as most people will not know much about them.
Then I write a little about why it fits.
Then I translate the words first to japanese romanji (japanese written with western letters) so people can recognise the words if they read them.
Then I translate the words to English which can be difficult because to make it sound good but still be true to the meaning. Sometimes there are translations on fan sites which I use but I always check to make sure they are correct (but if I can find a translation on a fan site it saves me a lot of time even if it is not so good and I need to correct it)
And then I hope people will like it ! ! !
Each post is maybe 30 – 45 minutes to make but I really have a lot of fun doing it ! ! !
For donds I try to make a list on Sunday evening if I have time. I listen to as many of the songs I do not know as I can and some of the ones I know and love. Then I try to make a list of ten tracks and write a few words about why i liked it. I make the ten tracks because with the words is usually just below the limit of characters in the box for posting.
Then I try not to sulk when I read the list on Thursday ! ! !
If I might be allowed to comment as a relative newcomer. I would like to add my support to RichJames comments. If there are to be guidelines or the like, then they shouldn’t seem too prescriptive as this might be off-putting. There are various conventions that RR regulars use that have been built up over the years. If newcomers want to know more and wish to adopt them that’s fine, likewise it should be OK if they don’t. I’m afraid it can tend to make RR feel like an exclusive club at times (sorry, but that’s my perception of how things come across sometimes). A newcomer will naturally be confused when someone posts “Thanks for the dond!”, if they have posted a song that has already been nominated up thread, and they may not hang around to find out why (whilst most regulars are normally pretty relaxed towards newbies, I’ve seen this happen occasionally). To my mind we’re here to have some fun and relaxation*/stimulation* – delete as appropriate.
That said, SpottedRichard has done a brilliant job in compiling these guidelines and I understand the sentiments behind doing this as an aid. If this will be helpful for newcomers, then great! With all the techniques listed too there maybe seems to be a lot to read, so perhaps it might be worthwhile separating these out more clearly (or having them at the end or linked off in a separate page). [ For me I couldn't say I have any real technique to nominating except that I like the song (generally!). I'm not great at justifications. I'm by no means a musician and work on the principle of least said least damage done (and less likely to make a fool of myself). So I usually throw in a few appropriate lines from the lyrics and hope that the track speaks for itself. I try to listen to tracks that are linked on the thread. I generally add Recommends via the button. A donds list gets done if I have time. Not very interesting and not worth quoting, just my two-penneth. ]
I hope this will be taken in the spirit intended – as input to the discussion and not as criticism. I enjoy the differing tastes and styles on RR and I have learnt a lot on this musical journey. There are probably as many different approaches to this as there are RRers. Thanks everyone!
PS. Sorry this is kind of late. I wasn’t sure whether to post this or not – I’ve done it now!
Hi Helen – thanks for posting and for your input. Guide is probably the wrong word totally, isn’t it?
I am going to update this quite heavily and put the final out there for a vote – with various options on what to include/not to include. It’s so important that if something is included in The Marconium that it does reflect the majority viewpoint.
When I drafted this I expected lots of feedback. It’s a dynamic process. So, no, I’m not taking this as personal criticism.
It’s important to have (or not have) something that is acceptable and everyone is comfortable with.
Special Wyngate rules for nominating
1. Hover at 10pm, speed read rubric, hurriedly try and get in first with an obvious favourite that someone else is also likely to get – beating Shoey to early Killing Joke classics is always at the back of my mind. Not that it’s a competition of course…
2. Re-read the rubric , note that JD is looking for street names AND house numbers and calm down a bit. Chuck in a few that spring to mind that are big favourites or happen to fit the topic exactly.
3. Get the grey matter in motion on one of the key tasks – nominating a Test Tube Babies track. If it takes a huge shoehorn so be it, RR regulars now expect me to do this.
4. Use my most powerful secret weapon in RR, the internal i-tunes that I have located in my subconcious. This will already be sending nagging feelings to my concious mind that somewhere in my rarely listened to collection of Apostles albums is a song that has a specific address in it’s title. My subconcious i-tunes selector will usually continue to bombard my concious mind with suggestions throughout the weekend, unless like this weekend it’s all gone very quiet in which case it probably means there really are no more songs on the topic.
5. In which case I either a) take it easy, after all it’s not like I haven’t got other stuff to be doing b) get out the shoehorn, start twisting the topic, have fun baiting the local law enforcement officer. Unless the rubric proves so rigid as to be untwistable (specific addresses for example)
A late thought from me: the front page of this should be really concise with key points about encouraging people to join in, how to do links, and diversity is our lifeblood. The longer contributions are brilliant, but if they’re too upfront the overall effect could be a bit daunting, like walking into a room full of people you don’t know. So they could be on a seperate page, with a link to the effect ‘if you want to read more about how some Recommenders approach the weekly challenge, click here…’ ??
I’d already realized that apart from saying “Welcome to RR: The Complete Index” on the home page of The Marconium, there is very little there to draw in new RRers by being especially welcoming and encouraging, stressing the importance of new community members and perhaps spelling out that the only rules are in The Guardian Community Guidelines and FAQs and regarding every other aspect, everyone does their own thing.
I am happy to do it, but on reflection, I think that the welcome thing is very important and should come from/be drafted by someone who has been around longer. I was wondering whether it might be up-front on the Home Page of the Marconium (if the Home Page can accomodate it) instead of a linked page so that it’s more prominent. Maybe Mr Marconium himself or as you have been so eloquent, you yourself could write the welcome intro to RR, DaddyPig?
Thoughts please,DP, Marconius, anyone?
PS I’m still doing the links thing etc.. and whatever else needs to be incorporated. I will be posting it back with voting options after I’ve finished revisions.
Thanks SR. I don’t mind drafting something, though I feel I’m too much of an RR part-timer for it to be in my name. Let’s see what your latest posts bring…