(I want to stress: THIS IS NOT a have a go a Jon post.. I started the idea during the digital change over before he started.. just so you all know.. thanks)
.
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Sometimes a performer loses the crowd – sometimes the crowd needs a curtain call to head towards – giving the artist and audience freedom to enjoy while the performance lasts, knowing that next week there will be another band to fall in love with (or, indeed, to perform in)
At the beginning of the year, when Readers Recommends was going digital only, I believed it was time for a shake up – nothing radical – still the same old nominate / playlist blueprint. But after 5 years a tweak, a refresher, a spruce Bruce with some pick up juice.
Here is what I thought:
Reader Generated:
As the Guardian already uses the reader generated content formulae – why isn’t it used for Readers Recommends?
Picking 20 songs then cutting and pasting the exact wording from the RR intelligentsia with a minimal amount of interjection from the guru creates a truly readers generated playlist, focusing on the nominations, channeling and inspiring the recommenders.
I don’t want to discount the pithy one liners or the speak for themselves songs (a txt vote is still a vote and those that struggle with their computers or typing are just as valid) – but these would be interjected into the overall feel of the 20.
But this way, I believe, it would come back to the eloquence of the posts and the unwavering enthusiasm that RRers have about their favourite tunes.
10 topic Guru’s:
We all think we have 10 topic’s – right?
Maybe right – maybe wrong – but it’s worth a try.
Cross reference with the Marconium, create your ten – (don’t tell anybody the themes) – and hey presto – for the next 10 weeks you are the Guru.
If people dislike your choices they know the timeline, they can take a break or change tact – but there will always be an end in sight.
The Guardian was requesting European Bloggers for a feature and stated that ‘obviously they’d pay’… well, can that not be the case for this feature? A thousand posts weekly and constantly updated over the weekends must generate a feel good vide from the advertisers.. if any one of us signed up to be Guru, an extra smidgen of pocket money would be most grateful in this age of austerity. Leaving a properly remunerated professional journalists like Jon Dennis to do his fantastic job presenting the daily news podcast. Obviously if a Guardian journalist requested the gig – a ten week curate would be most welcome from them also – the diluting of one overall taste is the ultimate idea and communal ownership the ideal… it wouldn’t be for everyone, but enough of us would enjoy the challenge I’m sure.
Tweaks:
There’s no need to radically overhaul the blog – it works – it brings a great deal of pleasure to a large amount of people.
If it was to become reader generated with a (semi) volunteered Guru then I would proposes these tweaks:
*Cut off point returned to midday monday – giving the compiler that little extra time (probably around their family life and normal job)
*Dond lists saved for after the cut off – I love a pat on the back and find seeing regulars parade their taste fascinating. When a few lists were generated it was charming – when the subject was so huge (such as repetition) seeing 60% of posts being thanks or dond lists – it was losing it’s appeal rather rapidly….. having cut out the nominate lists it seems a shame to be taken over by Dond lists.… the Recommend button could be used for it’s proper function during the designated window – (rather than witch hunting) and the Guru could tell the records from the crates.
Jokes, detours, illnesses, recipes and friendly abuse can obviously continue in their stream of consciousness way – just ‘save our dond’ (S.O.D it ’til Monday – possibly)
*Clarify the theme – the professional journalists have sometimes struggled to get their ideas about a theme across.
I propose a statement at the end of the theme blurb from the Guru stating: I will cmd/cntr F (saneshane*) as close to midday Friday** to answer questions arising from this theme.
* name of that weeks guru.
** time able to log on.. (any questions posed before this will be answered as best as possible)
this would aid interaction, distill frustrations and give the Guru a valid reason to raps some knuckles.
..and at midday on the Monday I would post a ‘bloody obvious 10′ just to get them out of the way.
this week is Jon D’s 10th subject – and it’s been a rocky tenure for some (a breeze in the park for others) and having just seen it pop up – it’s a dond theme.
I don’t want him to lose his job – if he was a freelance and not securely on staff – I wouldn’t even propose this..
but what do others think? should Jon D do another 10 playlists helping to get this ideas scratches removed?.. in theory it should be less work: read the recommends.. pick a long list of nominations, then narrow that list down to a personal 20.. cut and past as you go, then organise into the final list…add a few linking segments… job done.
I know it works, because I created articles in the same way before the 5 year anniversary of RR, using all your collective writings, thinking it would be a great way to highlight the deeply ingrained passion of this community.
end of the article questions:
1 – what do you think?
2 – Does it need tweaking?
3 – What are your ideas?
4 – Would you give up ten weeks spare time to act as Guru? (if paid a token amount to take it on)
5 – am I completely out of order and should shut up?
night all – (got to have needles stuck into me in the morning for blood tests).. so better stop drinking.
cheers.
Quickie first thoughts as i just stopped by -
-Right now feeling kind of guilty because i left a whole lot of dond posts on the mothership.
-10 topics is an awful lot for a guest guru. I’d go five or even less, 1 or 2. And then there isn’t a list rut either (of an RR’rrers particular taste).
-No, you’re not out of order. I have some minor beefs, but i’m a new guy in the grand scheme of RR and my little beefs are my own that really don’t need public airing.
My idea was for those that REALLY wanted to do it (and could spare the time) but to do it with some payment… so not just a hobby guest.
There’s people like Panthersan (slightly distracted at the moment) but who always wanted to be a music journalist – and others that have semi retired – I wasn’t expecting many. But a pool of between 5-10 who fancied the idea.
I felt ten was the right amount – in the larger picture because it’s settled and wouldn’t be like herding cats for the technical staff – and 2 and a bit months isn’t forever.
Many valid points, Shane. However…I’m happy with the job Jon is doing so far. Not perfect in every way, but no guru has been.
Also, based on my experience with Clip Joint, which is a very very different community, I have my doubts if an RRer as guru would ever work. Clip Joint seems less fun to me 90% of the time. And as CJ guru I’ve found picking 5 clips from maybe 50 comments immensely difficult. I can’t even imagine trying to make it work on RR. I don’t mean to be discouraging, but I think the whole thing might fall apart.
Of course, if you and others are that unhappy with the way it’s working now…
Thanks for sharing your ideas, though, Shane.
Quick point – I’m really NOT, repeat NOT, dis-satisfied with Jon – I like his write ups.
My problem is: reading the blog feels slightly wearing at the moment – (maybe it’s just me) – but my answer for that would be the timeline for a Guru.. so those not getting a Guru’s style knew when the end was near.. they worked harder or just rested.. but it wouldn’t come across as so dissatisfied in the comments.
as for not working on CJ – okay perhaps sticking with professionals would be best – but still changing at 10 could stop ruts ever appearing.
(I still fancy reading a few contributors tenures though)
Think you may be falling in the A-list trap. It’s nice to get a listing, but who really gives a fuck? You get a theme, you can still rediscover your own tunes, share your suggestions with others, stick up a ‘Spill list (Well just seems to be u & me now, mainly thanks to fucking dropbox). Jon D, is no worse or better than any other guru we’ve had IMNSHO. He seems to give a shit & it’s a thankless task – best reason I can think of for an RRer not to do it.
Sorry you’re disenchanted. My suggestion would be, don’t agonize & prep a list over the weekend; just vomit out whatever springs to mind & have some fun with it.
Spontaneity, it’s the new black.
Shoey .. do you think I give a monkey’s?
I have a post ready and waiting that involves my proud history of 11 A listers in 5 and a bit years (and the truth is I’m as happy as a man with an electric eel tickling his toes – that’s a good thing – try it!*)
it shouldn’t be a thankless task – this is SO enjoyable – that’s why the start/finish time would stop so many moans.. also giving the writer a very definite time to enjoy the process and not get moaned at… my idea of cutting and pasting readers comments was one for really getting it back to the idea of recommends (not dropbox or spottify – great tools – not the starting point)- that’s why I commented in the results section last night – even if you don’t like the A list (and DsD obviously didn’t) it was showing that he had at least read the comments.
Answering Chinny was another good touch – and one I wholeheartedly agree with – (chinny might disagree)
I WILL do a Police list – I WILL file it next to crime and law/punishment – I will not repeat (smiley culture is already on my RR police cd) but as these ideas were in my head – I thought I’d ‘vomit’ them out for discussion.. If everyone is still happy then it goes no further… but I’m a little bored self censoring so posted it up.
* (lawyers note) I can’t be held responsible for eel effects.
(smiley culture is already on my RR ‘CRIME’ cd)
can we afford an editor?
I’m with steen here. The CJ experience indicates, to me, that it would become a struggle to get volunteers after a while. And RR has 10 times the number of posts and contributors that CJ has, making it 10 times the job.
My only gripe with the current arrangement is the same one I’ve expressed in quiet or loud tones in the past: why on earth do we have to keep patrolling the same beats (to be topical)? There are still plenty of unexplored subject areas yet soooo many topics overlap with ones we’ve done before. Why don’t they check the Marconium?!
Shoey translation: just get the fucking guru to do his fucking job and pick original, interesting topics!
How much do they pay for you to do clip joint?
The Guardian asked for bloggers to do the Europe special and stated they’d pay in the comments – they are also doing articles on how to become a freelance Journalist.. There are people on here who write really well… advertisers must love the amount of involvement.
You would have to prove you could cope and meet the deadlines (and I expect the reunification would be more love than riches) but ten people from here and off the paper on a ten week stint – gives you another two years.
Why wouldn’t my utopian dream work?
(I’m smiling while I type, don’t take my rifting too seriously)
as for originality…
yep – there’s even a handy link to the marconium under the blurb… think ‘police’ check if it’s in there – then use a thesaurus for alternatives – takes 5 minutes… (and if you don’t like the style – in 10 weeks a new guru with a different take would be along)
Shane – they pay 75 pounds for Clip Joint (I think). ANd I would enthusiastically do almost anything guardian-related for that amount of money every week, because that’s what I make waitressing on average.
However…the reason CJ has not been as fun is not because they can’t find enough people to write them (I submitted a very good subject a month ago, and they’ve put me off for superior submissions, so obviously they have too many!) But because it takes a while to adjust to a guru, and then it really really makes a difference having somebody you kinda like and trust, even when they pick a subject that doesn’t click with you. On CJ, when it’s an uninspiring topic, and it’s somebody who won’t be around for long that you’ve never really noticed before, who doesn’t engage… Why bother? There’s something about having somebody outside of the fray who is also playing the game that is completely different, but I can’t explain why, because we’re going for a walk.
I see what you are saying..
…and the point of it being 10 themes each – was the ability to adjust to each guru (but also knowing it would come to and end in 2 and a bit months – if you didn’t gel with that persons themes)
That Guru would have to really want to do it – so it wouldn’t be – “oh I’ll have a go” and not have to work at it..or engage… I’ve exclaimed “Why bother” to all the Guru’s we’ve had in the 5 years – so why would it change if anyone here was at the DJ decks?
The trouble I’d see, is if people started nominating to the style of the person who had taken over because we DID know them… but that would need to be ‘nudged’ properly.. so it didn’t happen… but most of us are quite open minded.
But I do see your point of the neutrality of someone outside the fray being a bonus – (but didn’t Maddy work out fine – she immersed herself in our little world for her tenure- jumping in and out of the blog)… But of course if this didn’t work out – we could go back – nothing should be set in stone.
Enjoy your walk.
Shane… I’m not sure what I was saying anymore. I really thing Jon Dennis is doing a good job. I actually think that all of the ways he’s almost made mistakes proves that he’s in it for the music, and because he’s excited about the idea of it all, rather than being cynically in favor of one thing or another. (that didn’t come out right, but I’m very tired!) what I meant was…he’s a-listed some zedded songs, but it was because he really liked those songs and because he didn’t know what zedding meant. It was enthusiasm that hadn’t quite been informed. I’m fine with that. He’s sort of repeated a subject, this week. But I can’t tell you how many times I’ve looked for something I KNOW we’ve done…on the Marconium and not been able to find it because it’s worded slightly differently. It’s an honest mistake. And we have a newish readership, and oldtimers who have discovered new things. I’m really okay with it. There have been a couple of JonD subjects I thought were really difficult, and possibly even exclusive…but they were subjects about things JonD loves and collects. I’m completely fine with that.
Basically…I’d like to stick with JonD for as long as he’d like to stick with us, and I really really don’t want him to feel like we have a problem with him.
If you’d like to gently tell him to be more careful to double check that a subject hadn’t been done, or to include more actual RR comments about songs, I think he’d probably appreciate the ideas.
And Maddy coming along to chat with us was completely different than Maddy being somebody who had nominated songs along with us for years. It might not seem like it…Doing a few Clip Joints has COMPLETELY changed my idea of what it’s like to host a thing like this.
My boys are yelling at me, so I can’t state this as clearly as I’d like. I think you had some valid ideas, but I’d rather apply them to the current situation than ditch Jon D. (Not that you actually recommended that, I knoW!)
Agree, that the blog was a lot easier to read when comments were closed by Monday evening. Many seem to enjoy the extended hours, but am usually done nomming by Friday/Saturday myself & don’t feel a need to participate in the post deadline chitter chatter. There’s usually something more interesting on the ‘Spill.
Anyway, do miss you on the MFF.
but I just shout – Make Me Smile (Come Up And See Me) or I want a dog – then regret it ‘cos … well they are now on my HUGE A list compilation.
not that they are bad – but Steve Harley & Cockney Rebel would be better suited to someone else and I’m a big Pet shop boys admirer – but ‘I want a Dog’ A listed! – what? I like it – I wouldn’t recommend otherwise – it’s fun, a lovely throw away B side …and it was perfect in pets, but it’s not really in my top 50 PSB songs.. weird.
And I do miss you on the MFF or being around at all. I like your voice as part of the conversation.
That sounds good to me Shane. Even if not now, certainly when JonD moves on. Ten weeks might be a bit of a long tenure, but otherwise I think the sprucing, Bruceing and juicing is right.
…and the logical next step from not being in the newspaper.
Thank You DP..
I wasn’t suggesting now – that’s why I felt Jon D might be able to try it out (before he calls time).. it works in G2 where readers comments are edited together to make a two page spread – why couldn’t it work with RR?
hi shane – i’m just back from seeing the phantom band, and i’d just like to say how much i like the artwork that heads this post. cheerio b-mac. x
point 1 – our baby was under the weather so had to miss PJ Harvey in London when the background picture was taken.. this was fine and all my own choice…
But then I got ill and couldn’t go the the phantom band in Norwich —- sob sob sob — hope it was great.
point 2 – artwork is by my junior partner: Z-boy – (he wasn’t keen on going up chimneys) now he is six and a proper big man – he has to earn his keep.
Me too! Me too! I love it! I meant to say that first thing before I got distracted.
thank you –
i produced so many more photos and artworks last weekend by not being on RR – it was quite worrying..
for say – a hundred quid – I’ll do the first 10 RR’s when Jon’s had enough – and with artworks too..(so they don’t have to pay Getty images).. than we can make them into t-shirts and it’ll be fine and dandy all round!…. ha ha … night all.
I vote giving Pairubu a shot at guest guru. But maybe just for one week.
Question to me is what ppl want from RR, and hence the guru.
If what’s wanted is an arbiter, some method of making a list, there’s popular vote or appointing/accepting an independent arbiter (Jon, Paul, Rob). Dorian used the suggestions to craft a playlist. Maddy used the noms and ensuing discussion to inspire an essay.
With Maddy even if your songs weren’t chosen you’d at least feel you’d contributed. It was our essay. Not everyone could get picked, but every nom was for a greater purpose.
Nothing wrong with the arbiter approach either. I have no complaint with Jon, and several RRers could be equally knowledgeable and impartial. Asking arbiters to also be writers hasn’t worked; the column is forced, a list mashed into paragraph form. (And without a column to fill in the newspaper, why keep up the pretence. A bullet on why each song made the grade is more practical and allows greater creativity).
In the end, longevity for RR depends on getting out of the ‘definitive list’ mindset we are now in. Sending so many good topics and good songs to the Zed bin means ever-decreasing quality. And for morale, not getting picked because your songs just didn’t fit this week is less of a buke than failing to make a ‘definitive list’
(Full disclosure: I have no interest in guruing or even guest guruing. The only one of us who has the right combo of skills, trust and time – families, grrr – is bishbosh. That’s no offence to anyone else; it’s a combo of skills and situation)
“the column is forced, a list mashed into paragraph form..”
this is why I think it could go to a basic ..(as you say).. bullet points for each song – those bullet points just cut and pasted from the recommenders… ultimately taking it to its logical conclusion: Readers Recommend…. again just as easily twisted into a huge rant or celebration of a theme – why is it so structured?… we are not killing trees printing these out any more.
But I don’t agree that there is ever decreasing quality – it’s just different ideas of quality – why I think the picking pool should be widened…
shoulda clicked that ‘send comments by email’ thingee
“I vote giving Pairubu a shot at guest guru. But maybe just for one week.”
Cheek ! I can read, you know.
I made the suggestion for “guest gurus” myself, back in the days when PaulMac was in charge…great days…ah…where was I….oh ! ….but there’s a slight, I think, in built “problem” which is bias.
For example my own personal “taste” means that , if left in control, there is no way in Hell that any rap is going to get in the list. Not a chance. Well, maybe De La Soul….
With a “neutral” non participating guru we are free to look at the list and think “Damn, no country , again !” and not feel it too personally or that someone is leaving out our favourite genre ( Japanese Screechcore , in my case).
The guru . in essence, remains aloofa, above us mere mortals so when, as usual, he totally gets it wrong and leaves all my suggestions off, I’m not going to get worked up about it.
I’m rambling ( and gamblin’) but you get my drift. An “independent” guru is, I think, necessary for the smooth, non confrontational functioning of the blog and if anyone says different I’ll……
“I can read, you know.”
I was hoping you would! You can actually write too, and you say that you have more time on hand than most of us. Scary as some of your noms are, can’t really argue with your dond lists.
every guru is biased – and have their own taste – they are just as human as this side of the RR fence … it’s just a case of working on in when picking…
..but I’d like more confrontation, oddity and idiosyncrasies from the selector – when I nominated Rong Radio – Benjamin Zephaniah Vs. Rodney P (guess what theme!) loads of people agreed with it , I think before the days of Dond …
Dorian.. just went: ‘interviewed him once, clash of personality – it isn’t being A listed’ gutted I was.. but then thought – fare play.. stick to your (bloody shite) opinions – nice work.
I’m been trying to put my finger on what’s been niggling, and i think it’s that the lists seem to be sort of benign. If there’s anything i’d like to see some more of, whether from a guest guru or Jon, it’s a bit more openness to hardcore punk, metal, hip hop, rap metal, funk, industrial and techno. Uncomfortable and maybe a bit un-pc or ruder lyrics that hit home. There are a lot of good noms in these areas, i’ve found some great newtome’s in these genres.
I have to say that i do like reading dond posts. It’s easy to pass over a lot of noms when reading the blog, dond posts may get people to give a listen to a song that may have been passed over the first time. It would be an awfully sterile blog if it was just lists of noms and justifications, without the donds, jokes, off-topic sports asides, etc, imho.
there should be more openness to those genres – but they require more work to tell ‘the shit from the shine’ basically – and if your normal listening is say ‘landfill indie’ – you will struggle to value the good from the bad in say ‘Japanese Screechcore’ in one weeks listen through…. but if the recommender writes it up well, we all get a newtome in scenes we never thought we’d dabble in…
as for the donds – i like finding out peoples tastes and new discoveries – just thought they could wait till the majority of the nominations are in.
(I’m the kind of person whose blood boils when Albums of the year lists start appearing in late november/ early december… just WAIT)
and as I said at the start: Jokes, detours, illnesses, recipes and friendly abuse can obviously continue in their stream of consciousness way – just ‘save our dond’ (S.O.D it ’til Monday – possibly) …
..but really – i’m often wrong.
Shane -
People have different time schedules and comittments. Not everyone has the time to go through the blog and then hack up a dond list on Monday or Tuesday. Sometimes you just want to give a shout to a song you just heard and loved, or one you want to support, that’s along the way. Without having to take or keep notes to post later on in the week.
As to shit from the shine, in both hardcore punk hardcore metal and hardcore hip hop, etc, and also landfill indie, a lot of that is ear of the beholder too. One man’s shit may be another man’s shine, and vice-versa. Also, i guess i’m railing a bit about the compulsion to be so damn tasteful.
as I say to steenb below, the:
“holy shit, that’s good!” (her phrase) dond is great and I have no truck with that – it’s the excessive list culture that we all get in the habit of that I find get’s in the way of Recommends – I don’t know if other peoples ego’s really need all that pleasantness – use the effort to REALLY justify a favourite song.. is my opinion.
AND I STRESS – it’s just my opinion.
“a lot of that is ear of the beholder too”
.. too right..
a rolling pool of 10 themes, to each setter, changes those ears..at set times – creating less frustration.. see my point?
(I think Jon has done a good job of including hip hop, personally)
As for donds…I remember Dorian being exasperated when the “dond list” became a staple of RR. His idea was that you would express support for a few songs that you loved or had just discovered. The way I see it… If you have a dond like that… a “holy shit, that’s good!” dond… you should go ahead and post it when it strikes you. But I suppose I’m with Shane on waiting to post a dond list until monday or Tuesday. I think it’s still nice to get a dond when it’s in a dond list, by the way.
ANd the thanks-for-donds posts … I think those should be saved for special donds, too. I don’t want to be thanked for every dond I dond. Maybe that’s crazy, though?
Gotta go put the boys to bed!
I was surprised when I researched this – what Rap and hip hop had entered the list. (not going into that because it’s not about what any Guru does or doesn’t pick)
…as for a H.S,T.G dond.. that is about the passion … and I wholeheartedly agree you should shout that out.
but that’s just exactly my point – why can’t the dond lists wait?
for one.. all the songs will be in to judge.
and two…. it doesn’t dilute the recommends.
and again I stress that I love a list – once I felt comfortable enough on RR I rattled them out loads – but then realised that my boring list wasn’t enough and I should make a little effort.
being thanked for every dond I donned is becoming a bit RR loviedom.. very polite but … do we really need our egos massaged that much?
I just want to say…Shane – you’re the best!
And now I opted for a bollywood movie and an early bed instead of a party and a few local bands. Am I a fuddy duddy? YES!
Goodnight, friends.
Don’t mind repeat or similar themes, as there are usually plenty of leftovers. Might be better if the rubric acknowledged what has been done before (perhaps with links?), & if there is a shift in emphasis (i.e, the positive police songs, we were asked for this week).
Banged-on about this before, but have more a problem with the players than the guru. This week, in the 1st 50 posts, I count 37 unjustified noms – just name & song title. Talk about a boring read. Some of these may be justified later – but I’m still not buying that cop-out. We know what you’re trying to do.
Best (only?) idea PMac had was to refocus on justifications. Some made the attempt; most continue to ignore it completely. “This song title, by one of my fave artists, has a word in it that might fit the rubric”, “I googled this” or “To busy to justify this now, as I’ve got another 20 songs to snag, before someone else gets there 1st”. These are the invisible, implied justifications for most of what is being suggested on the Mothership, particularly during the MFF.
Players as judges? No way. At least not until they learn to handle the case for the prosecution & follow the rules.
Shoey – I fear you’ve captured my method! At the risk of sounding defensive…I do wait to do justifications, but it’s mostly because I’m not thinking very logically at the MFF. I don’t even think of justifications as a way of persuading a guru to put the song on a list, anymore, because it has never ever worked that way. (Well, once, with Maddy.) To me, writing justifications is one of the things that makes the blog so enjoyable. I always listen to the song a few times, and read the lyrics… I study the song, I guess, which is a way of getting to know it better and understanding it more. It might sound stupid, but it’s part of that discovering-new-things-in-your-own collection aspect of RR that appeals to me. I’m not trying to SELL the song, I’m just trying to see it in a new way.
Well, everyone should play how they want & justifications usually have nothing to do with getting a listing or not (they probably should, however that’s not the point).
Our blog has expanded & become unwieldy & boring because large chunks of it are a list of song/title bullet points. Present company excepted, but a lot of these suggestions are completely thoughtless & only there to machine-gun in an A-listing.
To turn this around, think that players do need to “sell” their nominations at the time of suggestion. This could be a few words (well, with me that’s all you’re likely to get) & expand on it later. Donds would also be more interesting if “why” was included & kill that stupid recommend button.
If all noms were justified; all the picks would also be justified. If noms were held back until there was something to say about them a lot of the thoughtless suggestions would go away.
Think if this became part of the culture, RR would return to it’s glory days. Justifications aren’t easy – but there are a number of players who already play this way: Beltway, Nilpferd, GHE & many others.
Point taken. I will mend my ways.
But shoey, your first half dozen posts on this weeks MFF don’t have justifications. At least none beyond ”this is a good tune”
You’ll usually get something beyond name & song title. Wouldn’t claim to be very good at justifying, & you’re not going to get long prose, with me hunting & pecking on a phone, plus I’m a reformed lister after all.
Exactly Shoey. Others may have similar tech or time constraints. I am certainly not defending lists, just pointing out the pot-kettle thing.
Maybe you’ve pointed to another argument for the column being a’best of’ the week’s comments, though; there’d be no reward for lists or minimally justified noms, or even for being first.
As is often the case, Tin, I think you are mistaken. But, whatever.
@Steen. Play how you want. Think RR being too big is the main reason that things aren’t like they used to be & it’s probably unrealistic to expect they could be (or that things were ever as good as we thought they were).
Shoey – I wasn’t being churlish, I was just posting from my phone. I think you’re right, or I wouldn’t have been so defensive. I am going to try to walk the straight and narrow, but well-justified, road from now on.
How it is communicated does help – Dorian ‘tried’ to be definitive in his blurb, then wearily explained (mostly to dumb arse me) that I was barking up the wrong tree.. I liked that – he would also shout about repeats, idiots, and time wasters… it felt in control.
Maddy’s complete involvement was enthusiastic, but also helpful – “don’t know if this theme makes sense but I’ll be along to clarify later”
but they were freelancers – (keeping up their OWN standards because it paid the bills – maybe)
As I’ve stressed – it’s not about Jon or the Themes – I can do a new ten – of songs I love every couple of Months probably to old or new themes (but I’m lucky .. because I have time and the inclination to search out those tracks out)
and you are right, it is the players – the game has changed to be – Get and A list – not readers recommend. Mostly – I stress, mostly – once it settles it becomes a good read….
Players as judges?
I was hoping those inclined to step up – would be the type that could see the ‘slipping into bad habits’ nature of this side of the fence, thus being able to communicate it better to their peers while being Guru.
I wasn’t here in the Dorian era so this is just an impression, but it sounds like a player couldn’t be any more prejudiced anyway. ”I don’t like ____ so we’re not having any” etc
The thing with justification is that I’m not entirely convinced it “works”. I have written long, rambling, incoherent justifications for some of my favourites like “Stinky Poodle”. Result – nada. Not a “dond” , not a “Coo, that’s the best song about poodles I’ve heard today”, no A list, no B list no reaction at all.
Then I post something, half seriously ( as in this week’s Village People suggestion), no justification, just the minimum info and- Bang ( of Flash or Pow, whatever you’re personal predilictions) a slew of “donds” , A list glory and a feeling that it must be me that’s got my ears on upside down.
Then again, in the days of home taping , I was in the habit of making deliberately unlistenable compilations, so it’s probably safest to ignore what I think.
pairubu and Steenbeck – it’s a lot to do with you two causing my initial angst…
and why I Darceysdad was shocked, when I questioned Jon … because it really isn’t in my nature.
I do read your write ups and think they are brilliant – but when they are picked when you yourselves have either said: ‘have a listen this it is shit’ or ‘I questioned it and believe the song isn’t a proper fit’ then both songs get an A list. my love of RR withers and dies.
Shoey’s points above are close to my own idea of how to retrieve RR’s soul – and i believe Jon or anyone could do it with a little control…and similar tweaks to what I suggested.
(if that failed let me at it after a few beers on a saturday night…I’d delete all the song titles alone – see what was left and then pick my 20 from the ‘best recommends’ not the first.. with names attached for extra ego boost – I wouldn’t even listen to the songs, so as not to be judgemental – couple of weeks doing that – the point of Readers Recommends would be back to describing a song you love and expressing that emotion – that’d learn ‘em!)
Ah, but you see, shane, I don’t see things in terms of “good” or “shite”, musically. I’m fully aware that, musically speaking, something like Stinky Poodle leaves a lot to be desired and, if I’m honest, which I hope I am, I wouldn’t “recommend” it to most people.
However, I love the song and the “story” that goes with it and, because of that , I would draw people’s attention to it but might include a warning that it’s not going to be to everyone’s ( anyone’s ?) taste.
I suggest stuff that I either really like or the existence of which is, to me, a thing of wonder ( as in Finnish “puppets” singing Paranoid c.f. this week’s thread).
I’m like a goggle eyed child in a sweet shop when it comes to music.
What the Guru picks is up to them. If I’m honest I wouldn’t listen to most of the stuff on the lists willingly, much of it is too familiar to me and , being a bit of a “world” music fan I generally find them to Anglocentric. That’s not a fault necessarily, the Guardian is , after all, written in a kind of English.
Just think of my more “out there” picks in terms of being like dog poo on your slipper. You know it’s poo but you still can’t help but sniff it to check.
sorry Pairubu – I think it was the :
Horribly sung in sub Super Mario Italian by Michaelangelo Jaggero….that I remembered (and that wasn’t really a proper theme – just songs sung in a different language)
(it was the Moby Dick nominations that got to me but that was another story and in the past – and nothing to do with your excellent ‘anti-establishment’ taste)
but as I said – it’s not beef with the guru…
your ‘out there’ picks really are no problem to me – I like to be exposed to these things – it’s why I love RR – for the dedicated knowledge that people bring to subjects that I have no idea about.. and your write ups are what I devour on the blog – you know your stuff and express it perfectly..
Shane -
Having a think about this in the shower, and there seems to be a lot of dissatisfied people lately. For some it’s the topics, or the lists, or the way they list, the way they dond, write up the lists, the way people express themselves or treat each other…etc. (my real gripe – i’d like to see links with all of the noms, that will usually get me to listen to them more than a justification will. Yes, i know there is the dropbox and Spotty, but those are closed shops in some ways, and there are a lot of good songs posted by some without access. So being a democrat i go by the blog.)
Speaking as one unlikely to get my noms listed these days, will i still come back to the blog? (not so much in the near future, as i’m going to be very, very busy, but that’s why.) Yes, because it still gives me what i’m looking for. Which isn’t a for good read (but that’s always a bonus), or for the lists. But for the simple pleasure of “a bunch of people hanging out in a pub and talking about music (and other stuff)”. And to find new music that i wouldn’t have found otherwise. It still works for me that way. And there is an embarassment of riches in the form of hardcore punk noms this week!
And so whatever guru gives us the platform for that (Jon it is), is ultimately fine with me.
I’ll admit to not liking the Stones Italian song much but I had severe reservations about that whole topic anyway. It was, in essence, a half humorously suggested “two finger” salute to the subject matter. I waited quite a while in case anyone else got it but no one did.
To it’s credit it’s “interesting” that the Stones bothered to do an Italian version of one of their songs. The curiosity value, just about, I think, makes it worthwhile as an “A” lister and, as Jon said , it does have a unique backing track.
It was, I think, a topic bound to throw up a load of badly “sung” songs. The results were “interesting” at best.
Would I listen to them voluntarily…once.
it had to be put down as an ‘interesting’ theme..
(and I held my tongue on numerous occasions – most notable the missing of the Portishead track – Beth Gibbons vocals are unique because she get’s that reverberation in her throat.. she struggled and failed in French to recreate that…ergo the song only stood up to anything like Portishead quality because the English Chorus was still sung with that tic – making it the same song with badly sung French verses – phew I fell better now!)
We needed to be told it was a curiosity theme really – I found four great tracks that I preferred in alternative languages – so all was forgiven… but that was what I was looking for, better songs.
p.s
I’d echo what amylee says. Ultimately whatever goes is fine by me. I’ve found some stuff I really like and would never have heard but for the suggestions of others.
Can’t ask for more than that.
I agree too – I’ve just fallen out of love with it for a while (it wont stop me popping back in on a Saturday night, when drunk, for a old time sake quickie – and if I’m still there at breakfast, there’s always the chance the flame will be re-kindled… but probably I’ll just feel hungover, grubby and be chucked out with poo on my slippers)
“a bunch of people hanging out in a pub and talking about music (and other stuff)”
yep- that is the good thing –
(it’s when the fuckers have racked up £20 quids worth of the same old songs on the jukebox – while I patiently explain why a Scandinavia neo-folk/indie, anglo inspired anti-pop song in beautifully idiosyncratic language deserves a spin.. but then wont get played for two more days – you know – that get’s to me…. )
anyway, this week, as an experiment – I’m avoiding the virtual pub and staying over here… when everyone has left on Tuesday – I’m going in and having an intense read, from start to finish – just to see how it comes across this week…
and I’d like to say what a pleasure it’s been having you all throw ideas around.. cheered me up no end.
p.p.s
I also plead pain killer induced “Not quite with it ” as an excuse for the Stones nomination.
Funny really, the week I’m a bit out of my skull saw me get 3 “A”‘s.
Perhaps I should take more drugs on a regular basis.
Ha Ha – I’ve got an operation on Tuesday .. maybe I’ll try the same trick and see what Thursday brings while off my tits on painkilling drugs!
OOo. Hope all goes well with the op. You have my sympathies. Make sure everyone else runs around for you and milk it for all it’s worth.
Yes, hope whatever operation it is goes OK, and that reading through 5 days of the blog helps with the convalescence !
I’m really easygoing about lists of nominations, with / without justifications, long justifications or a line or two of pertinent lyrics, donds, dond-lists, subsets of donds (spotify donds, dropbox donds), thanks for donds, thanking for especially-nice donds, not thanking for donds, going crazy in the MFF to get A-listed. I can’t see that it makes the guru’s job harder to skip a few posts, it’sall part of how we choose to do things in our diverse ways.
it’s only a mini op – so I’m not looking for sympathy – with two small kids about – I know my place in the pecking order anyway.
“it’s all part of how we choose to do things in our diverse ways.”
agreed too – but sometimes a little re-focusing gets back to the essence of what we have here –
I’d still like a clearer focus..
10 weeks each guru (from the paper or this side of the fence)
dond LISTS after close..
but it’s probably just me.. cheers all.
2 kids & a snip? If so, keep the frozen peas handy.
Yes, Shane, good luck on your op.
One thing about topics too – a couple wtf topics for me were songs about bicycles and veg, and this incarnation the Songs for Children was the topic from hell for me, and i couldn’t really contribute to the B-sides topic. But i actually think that’s fine. The b-sides threw up some good songs. I don’t mind taking a week off here and there, just listening, and otherwise being productive. Like Shane said, personal productivity does go up when time on RR goes up!
I would also hate to see people feeling intimidated into posting or behaving a certain way. We’re all different and have different personalities and ways of doing things. Some are bound to get on your nerves, and it’s probably different for different people.
(I’m one of those fuckers who racks up $20 of songs every one already knows, because that’s all i know! I’m on RR to hear new stuff.)
I maybe see Shoey’s beef abut the early noms on the blog, but as i can’t show up until a few hours and 200 posts after MFF, it doesn’t really bother me much as i rarely read it except a brief scan.
the $20 was a dig at my bar/pub days more than RR amylee..
I wouldn’t want intimidation – but a theme like B-sides just needed stressing: “nominate songs that are SO excellent you couldn’t believe they were a B side” rather than the fact that any B side I owned was up for grabs… it might help… little nudges.. that’s all.
(bicycles was one of my faves – weird innit?)
again – why rolling 10 theme gurus would be my ideal – if their theme’s suck to you, wait a bit and another sucker comes along soon enough to annoy!
A few interesting points here some of which may well apply partly to yours truly.
The whole issue of sorting the shit from the shine or whatever phrase was used when dealing with more “niche” genres is a bit of a bugbear for me. As amylee said it’s in the ear of the beholder. I always resist slightly the idea of a list of established classics, even while recognising them. Even within punk I tend to like what I like and go against the herd. No doubt at the Rebellion festival this year I will miss numerous “classic” bands as i go to watch someone utterly obscure on a small stage. I do try to indicate if I think a song might have a wider appeal for people on RR who would perhaps normally avoid my nominations. But my general rule is if I like it and it’s on topic I’ll throw it out there to sink or swim, usually with a link if I can find one. The strangest thing that’s happened for me this week is an almost throwaway nomination for a rough and ready 80s obscurity that turned out to have personal significance for webcore – how can you predict these things?
As for justifying nominations I like to do this but it can be difficult. There was as some may have noticed a lot of songs I wanted to nominate this week but only so many ways I could say “It’s fast and angry and they really don’t like the police much”. Whether that’s a shortcoming on my part or down to the limits of the genre I’m not sure, probably both. Most of the straight punk I like works at a gut level, not an intellectual level, so it’s hard to put into words, which is why I post so many links. I have also found like pairubu the curious phenomnon that is the throwaway nom that ends up on the A list. My first A lister was a Throbbing Gristle track that I casually tossed in with no justification after much discussion of a zedded song by them. Again, it’s very unpredictable.
As for shoey’s comments on the mass nominating at the MFF – you’ve got me bang to rights. I’m usually trying to get in there before 1234ramones – fair cop guv! I can’t deny that there will be a small part of me that’ll be disappointed if there’s a punk A lister but it’s Dsd’s nomination of The Ruts’ SUS, one which I should have thought of much faster! It’s competition but at least it’s friendly competition.
I’m quite happy with what Jon’s doing with the odd wobble. A good topic is a good topic, a difficult topic is time for a break, which is needed now and again. I only get slightly irritated if the rubric seems a bit slippery – Jon’s done this once (Showing Off), Paul Mac did it occasionally. A listers are an occasional bonus for me but I like to have a fair chance!
I’m going down your list right now, i’m on the Violators so far. It’s getting more difficult as the G seems to have some IT problems lately, so profile comments are wonky. Keep throwing them up, some of us listen. And you put links in when you can too, that helps.
@amylee – thanks. I don’t expect the stuff I like to appeal to everyone on RR or even to appeal to many, but it’s always a bonus that some people like it (usually yourself). Take it or leave it is my approach, the only thing I don’t like is when people have got some kind of misinformed prejudice about some of it, but I’ve got to say that’s one thing RR is pretty much free of.
I had a pretty shitty day at work today. Well, the whole weekend. Everybody there is miserable. Blow the place up miserable, in fact, and many of them have guns. It would be mildly ironic if they did, in fact, shoot the place up, because the owner has a poster up that says, “If guns kill people, did spoons make Michael Moore fat?”
Anyway. It occurred to me that people have ALWAYS been vaguely dissatisfied with RR. Several people left forever in a huff when Dorian was guru (only to return the next week, and then leave again forever, etc…) When Maddy started (and everybody remembers her era as the golden age) people complained about her very vocally on the ‘Spill. She read it, not surprisingly, and was very hurt, and things progressed from there, hurtingly and healingly. People are miserable. People like to complain. Nobody is happy with anything, and nobody ever leaves a fucking 20 percent tip.
Okay…This is not a have-a-go-at-Saneshane’s-have-a-go comment. Saneshane…I think you’ve made some wonderful suggestions, as have other people who commented on here. Maybe we could suggest some of these to JonD, constructively, and see how it goes? Basically, RR is the most friendly, encouraging, rewarding, cohesive, pleasant, companionable and inspiring community that I’ve come across in a while, and all of our thoughts here have been about fostering that, because we value that. And now I’m going to take my tired and cranky self off somewhere that I can do no more damage.
Are they hiring at your job? I just found out that my paycheck bounced today, i may not have a job soon! I feel bad for my boss, but wish he just told me that the money wasn’t there and i could have avoided the bounced check fee that i got charged. Maybe i will have more RR time after all.
you ever read waiter rant?
http://waiterrant.net/
Link didn’t work, but that’s ok. (i don’t know if it’s that site or not, but there was one where i enjoyed the celebrity douchebag notes – celebs who tip like shit, or really well, or just act like assholes. Lou Reed is on my douchebag list, even though it wasn’t me who waited on him). I kind of hate any food or restaurant related entertainment on my own time!
I’ve had the idea that my job may be disappearing soon, so i’ve been toying with the idea that maybe it’s time to not get another job if it does tank, and just focus on my own business. I could do it, but it would be really, really tight for awhile, and i don’t really want to deplete my savings.
RR is?
DEFINITION: A place where to recommend songs I like?.
Caveat nº1: The songs I like are well known already, so why bother?
Caveat nº2: I feel ignored and frustrated when my recommendations fail to make any impact whatsoever among the rest of posters. Frustation is accumulative, so, the more it happens, the grumpier / dissatisfied / cranky I get.
Caveat nº3: A lot of my personal, obscure gems are obscure for a reason. The pleasure I get from them is genuine, but a lot of them are an acquired taste. Just a quick listen in passing among other 30 equally unknown songs is not going to make any difference for a casual listener
DEFINITION: A place where to argue about music I like.
Caveat nº1: I don’t know how to argue without making it personal.
Caveat nº2: I am not ready to be persuaded. I am not open minded enough. Not a surprise, either. I like to speak a lot more than I like to listen. Not just me. Everybody. No matter what the subject is. Engaging in serious conversation takes effort, and the moment this starts to look too much like actual work, most people would be out the door, I reckon. Myself included.
DEFINITION: A place to discover new music.
Caveat nº1: There’s just too much music out there. No matter how good my justification is, it needs to resonate with somebody else. Paradoxically, after an initial, great amount of new discoveries for which I’m really thankful to you all, I’m listening to less new (to me) music now than before I knew RR existed, not more. Nobody’s fault but mine, obviously, but the question stands. How many new songs can I handle per week, every week? My personal answer is, not a lot. To me, any week I get genuinely psyched about one new song, just ONE, it’s a good week, musically speaking.
Possible solution to caveat nº1: Some namedropping, off the top of my head…
Steenbeck, saneshane, shoegazer, tincanman, sonofwebcore, nilpferd, pairubu, fintan, amylee, darceysdad, chinhealer, severin, sourpus, glasshalfempty, 9h9k, beltwaybandit, gordonimmel, barbryn, fuel, wyngatecarpenter, daddypig, may1366, chris7572, kalyr, carolebristol, maki, catcher, abahachi, marconius, magicman, shivsidecar, suzi, thewinslowboy, rockingmitch, sweethomealabama, shiparrivingtoolate, bishbosh, tatankayotanka, albahooky, fredflinstone, debbym, mnemonic, bluepeter, robbo100, ejaydee. That’s 45 people, plus…
- people I’m forgetting (apols!)
- new people discovering RR every week (they keep coming, which is great)
- people who’re not around that often, but also contribute
That’s a whole lot of people. If any of you would recommend just one song per week, or single one of your recommendations out to the rest of us for special consideration per week, that’s still well over 50 songs every week. That should make for an interesting, weekly compilation, different to the A/B lists, (that are constrained by one guy’s personal tastes, and stronger adherence to a topic), and presumably would include more than a few discoveries to most of us, of not all. The question is.. if that compilation existed, would people listen?
Which leads me to another question. For all the complaining and bickering lists are always bound to generate, (no matter who makes them, no matter who’s listening)… how many of us do listen to the A-list or the B-list? My guess is, when they get out, what people do is:
a) checking if one of their songs are there
b) grumping – congratulating oneself – shrugging, depending on mood and outcome, for a very short time
c) move on.
Any of this is a putdown on anybody. I don’t think there’s nothing essentially wrong with RR or what we do with RR. It’s just… well, maybe our expectations are way too high, that’s all I’m saying. Most things in life work a lot worse than RR does, I’m afraid.
An intriguing idea, Lambre. I wonder if it would work. If anybody else is intrigued as well, I’d be willing to try hosting it for a week or two and see if anybody listens. (Because most people have my e-mail anyway). We could just use the first 10 or 20 that come in, because any longer would probably be hard to keep up with. I doubt everybody would want to submit something every week. And then we could either cut and paste the justifications on the blog, or just have the listener actually read the blog. Hmmmmmm….
Readers REALLY recommend?
That list is actually a pretty good idea. I tend to do this once in awhile on the blog anyway – plug just one of my own noms that i’d be gunning for on a list. (never works though. and i used to be kind of pleasantly surprised at the songs of mine that Paul and Rob did put on the B).
@lambrethina – a very honest post that reminds me of my approach to RR. I’m not really looking for new music here although I’m occasionally prompted to investigate something I hadn’t really investigated before (Gun Club being the main example). I’m here to nominate stuff that I like just because I enjoy it. I’m a bit wary of opening up to unfamilar stuff because I’m a bit obssessive about stuff I like and time,money and space is limited. If I suddenly got really into Bulgarian folk where would it end?
It’s the “pub chat” aspect that’s really good about RR. And after a few pints I tend to waffle about stuff I’m enthusiastic about that means nothing to anyone else. At least here if people aren’t interested they can move on.
The singling-out your personal nomination of the week idea is quite a good one although on a topic like this week’s it would be difficult for me personally. Worth a go though!
Another thing that I enjoy with RR is tha it’s a different way of approaching your own collection. You’re looking for songs that fit a theme so this prompts me to dig out stuff I perhaps haven’t played for a few years. Sorry if that sounds like a self-absorbed way of approaching RR and it’s not as if I never listen to other people’s suggestions.
And as for “Most things in life work a lot worse than RR does” – too right!
You may not realize how much i, and most likely others too, enjoy your stories. You’re as expert and involved with your niche as Mitch is with his, and the stories and background and history from both of you are appreciated and enjoyed.
Taking the pub analogy a step further, sometimes people have one too many and get in spats! We still haven’t found a good way to work that bit out.
Is there an iPhone breathalyser app? (They seem to have everything else!)
good thing i don’t have an iphone.
Hope you didn’t think that was aimed at you amy! It wasn’t in any way.
I’m working on a iPss’d apt for me and shoey – the beta vesion is working better on my phone than…. …… only kidding!
Nah, Tin, i was aiming it at myself! Maki and i were saying last week that we’ve generally had 1 or 2 by MFF time.
Agree with Lambre & Wyngate in that there’s too much music out there to listen to, coupled with not really looking for but sometimes finding a tune that connects.
The compilation list-thingy above sounds like it could be a go-er …
For what it’s worth my RR philosophy is if it’s a tune I know and like which I think fits the topic then I’ll put it up with a minimum of justification as it’s the tune and not my writing about that should be taken into consideration. If I can get my grubby paws on it to post that’s a bonus as
I’m generally in a state of temporal penury (things to do vs. time to do them).
If it’s listed – good, if not – it’s the guru’s loss, because ultimately it’s about what the tune means to me.
I’ve just worked out to do this on my phone so may not in future arrive at the debate when they’re sweeping up the leaflets but, for what it’s worth, I tend to go along with the emotion that this is a thing that works pretty well and that the foibles of gurus and regulars are rarely worthy of aggravation.
But shane is right that the switch to digital-only should prompt a re-evaluation. The A-list, to me, always felt like a delicate morsel sliced out of our collective genius and obsession each week and served like sushi to ‘other’ people, the people, not like us, in that mythical caravan heading to Rhyl. Maybe that sense of eternally looking to win other people round meant for a culture of strong justifications and genuinely warm welcomes to newcomers. But the change came and I understand it, and it’s probably swelled the blog participants and yet (given the time) it’s still a good place to hang out and a good read. So it’s healthy – but it feels more inward looking with no paper outlet, and maybe it’s just time – we know each other well enough to get more irritated by each other (me, barely at all with any one of you but it’s easy to spot vibes).
We have here, the still overwhelmingly pleasant camaraderie on the mothership, the Facebook group and personal connections – so I think it’s OK to want a little more of a sense of purpose from the topic/nominations/A+B lists. I’d absolutely love to be paid to write about music for the Guardian and fuck me if I don’t need the money but the listening and balanced selection duties would be tough to pull off. But the Guru picking a Top 10 nominations list, emphasisng the passion, poetry, humour, knowledge, creativity and bloodymindedness on display, and adding a Guru’s list of 10 more tunes that nailed and defined the theme – however they were shouted – seems fair, progressive and not risking too many baby/bathwater drainage discrepancies.
Just popped back to see how the discussion was going, and I agree with the way this is going. Steen’s point about what happened with Maddy is especially pertinent, and Lambre’s points resonate.
I’m either having one of my regular time-outs to recharge, or missing the spur of reading the newspaper on a Friday morning, so I could muse on the topic during the day and log on in the evening with a little ist of songs to (usually) dond or nominate.
For some people, the disappearance of the newspaper column will have made no difference, but for me, I agree it feels like a cue to make a few changes.
“Steen’s point about what happened with Maddy is especially pertinent”
this is true – and I hope we try now to be fare – I questioned Jon about reading the comments and put up a few reasons why – but I wanted to stress it’s not about him – it’s always about my relationship with the blog – whatever Guru.
I got upset because it was readers list songs – (7 in the A list that I highlighted) not recommends.
On a truly personal level I try to take in what people are recommending – I hope others do and it isn’t all just shouting out – but that’s down to personality…
I’ve loved some of these ideas coming in.. I’ve got a couple more posts to sort and we’ll see what people agree on.. once I’ve bottled it up in a succinct package.
At the moment I’m doing a proper read through of the weekends blog (while in pain) I will try and post a Fun selection tomorrow – it’s been an entertaining and interesting experiment…
watch this (or that) space..
cheers all.
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